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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

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17
bappymonday · 09/03/2022 07:45

@jgw1

It's absolute madness that Putin in creating this FaKE narrative. Who is he trying to fool? Why is he trying to fool? If what he is doing is it the truth what is the real reason for this action?

Putin is not trying to fool anyone. I am of the opinion he believes entirely what he is saying.

So actors for TV filming - he wouldn't know they were actors?
toastfiend · 09/03/2022 07:46

@Shopsdahling but the DM weren't giving a warning - they were reporting the Russian minister's words supposedly exactly as he said them. The DM are a rag, it's not their place to give warnings and that's not what they were doing, they were writing a sensationalist headline for clickbait, as usual. Putin lies, we know that, but so far in this conflict Russian ministers seem to have been wording things very specifically intentionally. Make no mistake, if Putin decides he wants to retaliate or manufacture an act of aggression from NATO then he absolutely will do that regardless of what we do - we've sent enough lethal aid already - but the warning given in that newspaper article was pretty specific about what would be seen as entering the conflict.

Anyway, it's obviously been decided for now that it's not a sensible plan so all this is kind of by the by.

WeAreTheHeroes · 09/03/2022 07:48

The UK government and those around the world need to stop buying oil and gas from Russia. If we don't we're effectively funding Putin's war machine against Ukraine.

There are reports on BBC News today about the mothers of Russian soldiers and they are poorly paid and fed at normal times. One woman said something about poverty in Russia - outside the middle classes in cities it sounds as though life is hard for the average Russian.

Thewayshetalks · 09/03/2022 07:52

The daily mail is and always has been such an irresponsible outlet, todays story about the squaddies shows this once more.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 07:58

I’m so frustrated by the narrative that it’s not Russia bombing Ukraine

Anyone listening to R4

I can’t bear this part of it

How can we stop what when we can’t agree what’s happening

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 09/03/2022 08:01

@Thewayshetalks

The daily mail is and always has been such an irresponsible outlet, todays story about the squaddies shows this once more.
Absolutely.

It’s as if its headline writers are competing to shoehorn in the words ‘nuclear’ and ‘WW3’ as many times as possible.

It’s a very widely read paper in the UK and online in the US too. It’s read or at least looked at by a lot of MNers.

It’s a bit of a panic rag right now. I think we need to recognise that.

Etinoxaurus · 09/03/2022 08:03

@MarshaBradyo

I’m so frustrated by the narrative that it’s not Russia bombing Ukraine

Anyone listening to R4

I can’t bear this part of it

How can we stop what when we can’t agree what’s happening

I heard that. The editorial was very clear that she was a Moscow shrill.
Natsku · 09/03/2022 08:03

@RedToothBrush

Financial Times *@financialtimes* Sweden’s PM has ruled out applying to join Nato, saying that membership would destabilise northern Europe
To be expected I suppose, probably feels too risky to join right now. But if Sweden has ruled it out then I guess Finland will too, we always do things together.

Russia is possibly interfering with Finnish planes GPS - more reminders of the threat?
"The Finnish Transport and Communications Agency Traficom announced on Tuesday that numerous aircraft had reported GPS signal interference on the Mikkeli – Jyväskylä – Kuopio axis.

Traficom issued a formal notice to airlines about issues with GPS signals in the area on Monday.

According to Helsingin Sanomat, the notice indicated that the problem has affected practically the entire eastern border of Finland. That, it writes, raises the question of whether Russia is behind the GPS interference."
The last this happened was when there was a major NATO exercise in Norway and Russia was suspected of doing it then

DrBlackbird · 09/03/2022 08:04

Do we believe the news that Russia has solved the logistics issues and that Kyiv will be taken in a matter of days given that Putin cannot afford to lose this war? And if Kyiv is taken, presumably that is effectively the end and Russia has won.

“We assess Putin feels aggrieved the west does not give him proper deference and perceives this as a war he cannot afford to lose,” the US director of national intelligence, Avril Haines, told the House intelligence committee.

It’s going to sound cynical, but how long will McDonalds etc stay closed in Russia once the photos of bombed buildings and injured children stop dominating our news? Putin believes the west is ideologically weak and that being addicted to consumption and an easy life, the sanctions will gradually be dropped once when Russia ‘wins’.

Natsku · 09/03/2022 08:05

The UK government and those around the world need to stop buying oil and gas from Russia. If we don't we're effectively funding Putin's war machine against Ukraine.

Agreed, that really needs to happen. Going to be a lot harder for some countries though, maybe the EU can do something to ease the trouble for those countries in the EU most affected by cutting off Russian oil and gas?

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 08:06

Etinox i just can’t bear the sidestep when bombing is happening

I know it’s the Moscow line but it’s hard to hear

It’s misery on insult for the admission not to be there

jgw1 · 09/03/2022 08:07

@MarshaBradyo

I’m so frustrated by the narrative that it’s not Russia bombing Ukraine

Anyone listening to R4

I can’t bear this part of it

How can we stop what when we can’t agree what’s happening

If we each use a little less oil, gas and electricity, then less will need to be bought from Russia.
RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 08:10

Theres a (very) long thread on twitter about the dependence of Russian on western technology because its a mafia state which I will post when i get chance.

Its an interesting point.

Other countries targeted by sanctions have not had the same level of technological dependence.

This is where a black market might emerge, but the ruble is worthless and its difficult to transport stuff cos of the insurance so the cost is extortionate and the west will be watching carefully such trades of any scale.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 08:26

It makes it difficult for Russia to replace weapons. They cannot manufacture them easily.

So that does leave smuggling. Can they do that in sufficient quantities to maintain a war like this?

Even if they can conscript more soldiers (rumour is higher education is now being targeted for this... Just because this is the smart way to put down protests...) they need equipment to fight with.

Two worries with this for me. Firstly is what the Russians might be able to capture in Ukraine if we flood it with weapons but the Ukrainians cant defend well enough.

And I do wonder about the opportunities of smuggling for say a country with massive economic problems, a shit international reputation but a shitload of state of the art weapons left behind... For example

There are also other players who could make money of this - but we are going to struggle to politically stop because we are asking them for fuel...

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 08:28

@DrBlackbird

Do we believe the news that Russia has solved the logistics issues and that Kyiv will be taken in a matter of days given that Putin cannot afford to lose this war? And if Kyiv is taken, presumably that is effectively the end and Russia has won.

“We assess Putin feels aggrieved the west does not give him proper deference and perceives this as a war he cannot afford to lose,” the US director of national intelligence, Avril Haines, told the House intelligence committee.

It’s going to sound cynical, but how long will McDonalds etc stay closed in Russia once the photos of bombed buildings and injured children stop dominating our news? Putin believes the west is ideologically weak and that being addicted to consumption and an easy life, the sanctions will gradually be dropped once when Russia ‘wins’.

I don't think you are being cynical. I think its a fair question...
Peregrina · 09/03/2022 08:35

I think my question is why are the UK involved so heavily politically?

In part so that Johnson can do his Churchill act and Truss her Thatcher act.

I am glad to see that cooler heads prevail in Sweden and that now is not the time to make a panic stricken attack to apply to NATO.

LightingCandles · 09/03/2022 08:37

Re the oligarchs putting pressure cos their lifestyle has changed, this was an interesting read.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/08/sanctions-vladimir-putin-kremlin-russian-oligarchy

DuncinToffee · 09/03/2022 08:40

.

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
DuncinToffee · 09/03/2022 08:59

Ros Atkins
twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1501455091353722881?t=dl0jroApOsGNpC3-KJ2e_w&s=19
In February the West was clear an invasion was possible and that a refugee crisis was certain if that happened. Here’s 6 mins on how the UK is responding to that crisis and on concerns about how the visa processing is going.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 08:59

Harry Cole @mrharrycole
EXC: Lancashire fracking sites ‘to be used for further research’ rather than be concreted over next week…

Stay of execution to at least June 30 comes amid backlash from dozens of Tory MPs and peers like @DavidGHFrost

Peregrina · 09/03/2022 09:05

EXC: Lancashire fracking sites ‘to be used for further research’ rather than be concreted over next week…

This is all very depressing -makes me think that Boris and cronies never waste a good crisis. ditto oil prices going through the roof -all because of Ukraine.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:05

Lisa O'Carroll @lisaocarroll
Ukraine, once known as breadbasket of Europe, has banned exports of grain, sugar, malt.

Raises food security issues across EU.

Irish ag minister told RTE farmers (many dairy and beef) shd "consider planting some grain this year". 60% of grain imported

Irish ag minister met farming representatives last night to discuss issue.

www.reuters.com/business/ukraine-bans-exports-several-grains-sugar-salt-meat-2022-03-09/
Ukraine bans exports of several grains, sugar, salt, meat

Branster · 09/03/2022 09:10

@WeAreTheHeroes

The UK government and those around the world need to stop buying oil and gas from Russia. If we don't we're effectively funding Putin's war machine against Ukraine.

There are reports on BBC News today about the mothers of Russian soldiers and they are poorly paid and fed at normal times. One woman said something about poverty in Russia - outside the middle classes in cities it sounds as though life is hard for the average Russian.

Only addressing the second part of your comment. My perception is that the average Russian has been dirt poor for decades. They have faced never ending real hardship and poverty. The largest number of the population is not located in the main cities. I would never underestimate their resilience in the face of day to day poverty and shortages of supplies. It is not because they want to or because they agree with the situation (current, or recent past or going back over the last 20-80 and so on years). It is because they do not have room to manoeuvre. Or the energy to do so. There is either fear of repercussions, or belief in the system because that is what the constant messages make them believe, or simply when you struggle to survive you do not have the drive, vision, resources to change. I also believe that when, eventually, they reach the absolute limit, they'd be capable of revolt. But then there would be a need for a coordinated effort to overcome the real possibility of persecutions. Would it be a natural joining of efforts, would it be a figurehead leading the fight? No idea. The other blanket of more influential individuals/groups would, possibly, react earlier because they are used to the good life and are properly desperate to hang on to it at all costs. Not ideal long term. The in-between population are, by the looks of it, trying to protest, but their efforts are quickly stopped. But they are not the majority of population in terms of numbers. There would have to be some sort of internal implosion affecting all layers of society to re-dress the balance. I can't quite picture it myself, but I can't see it being an easy process at all.
Natsku · 09/03/2022 09:12

Food security being affected is worrying. I wonder what the long term impact of this war might be, will countries try to be less dependent on others? E.g. produce more of their own food, invest more in their own sources of renewable energy like windfarms?

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:14

time.com/6155374/arab-world-reactions-ukraine/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=ideas_&linkId=155517853
How the Arab World Is Responding to the War in Ukraine

There’s only one Arab leadership that is genuinely pro-Putin: the Assad regime in Syria. Every other Arab state is generally prioritizes its Western ties, and none is trying to pivot to Moscow. But this does not mean Arab states are hostile to the Kremlin. They generally see in Russia a substantial global power that continues have relevance in their region—and sometimes intervenes in ways that are helpful to their interests. Moscow is also a useful capital to publicly ‘flirt’ with when relations are strained with Western capitals (particularly DC).

So Arab states’ complex reactions to the Ukraine invasion is far less about Russia than it is about the West. Over the last decade, Arab leaders have had a growing sense that the West is an unreliable partner. Part of that has to do with their autocratic expectation that the West would stand by Western-allied autocrats like Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak during the Arab uprisings of 2011, a stance that frankly would have been consistent with Western policy until then and since. But there has also been a keen awareness that the West in general, and the U.S. in particular, has failed to show the will to hold its own in several theatres: from the so-called ‘red-line’ in Syria over chemical weapons in 2013, to Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, to the chaotic abandoning of Afghanistan in 2021. Many Arab leaders also note with concern that America’s “pivot to Asia” is a pivot away from the Arab region.

In the early days of the Russian invasion, it was clear that Arab states wanted to keep their options as open as possible, and not alienate Moscow if they didn’t need to. That doesn’t make them pro-Moscow; it means they assess that the world as becoming more multi-polar, and that the West had not given much indication that there would be much of a cost to trying to be “creatively neutral.”

That’s changed. The West has signaled that Russia’s invasion is not a case where ‘neutrality’ is going to work, at least not if states want to continue the same kind of close relationship that has so far characterised most Arab-Western ties. Arab states know that if they want to continue with their modernisation drives—in terms of technical developments, technology and investment—there is no substitute at present for the West.

Article then briefly talks about how Arab countries will try and use this to their benefit to get concessions from the West.