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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
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17
MissConductUS · 08/03/2022 16:46

[quote vera99]Paul Krugman: Everything Is Political
An interview with the Nobel prize-winning economist on what to do about the “zombie ideas” that animate contemporary political discourse.

daily.jstor.org/paul-krugman-everything-is-political/[/quote]
Given that this is about American partisan politics I'm not clear on the relevance to Ukraine. Krugman's Nobel prize was for his work on international currency markets. It doesn't give him special credentials in politics or world affairs.

elephantmarchingin · 08/03/2022 16:48

@Ijsbear

If a no-fly zone went ahead for Mariupol for humanitarian reasons, I'm sure Russia would take it very badly. He would capitalize on it within Russia.

But I'm not sure a single leader in the world would see it as intentional warfare given his history of twisting the truth. They could however use it for anti-Western rhetoric within their own countries.

A nasty thought that has occurred - I hope ISIS don't capitalize on this.

Problem is Putin has been clever in making sure the humanitarian corridors are not being attacked by air.

No fly zones mean F all for artillery fire!

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 16:49

Kay Burley @kayburley
NEW: Home Office minister tells Commons that UK should be worried about those arriving at Calais ‘pretending’ to be Ukrainian refugees and sights the death squad ‘pretending’ to be tourists in Salisbury attacks.

Read the room PM.

#Ukraine president to address Commons at 5pm

Polly mcKenzie @pollymckenzie
But the Russian death squad travelled to the UK on a tourist visa. And Russians can still apply for tourist visas. So... how is this the border vulnerability we're bothered about?

Hands up who thinks a russian death squad looks like a mother and her 5 year old and a toddler?

Anyone?

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/03/2022 16:50

The No-Fly Zone appeals and rejections are a tactic.

Ukraine asks, NATO says no. Putin doesn't get his propaganda victory.

Meanwhile the western powers are giving Ukraine military aid, financial aid and 'sanctions aid' from outside the borders.

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 16:50

Skynews twitter feed says they are showing the Zelensky address so pretty sure BBC will then.

It's on BBC Parliament, also via iPlayer.

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 16:50

@ elephantmarchingin ... oh .. yeah, Right :((

borntobequiet · 08/03/2022 16:51

One of the signatories to that letter - Kurt Volker - was implicated in Trump’s attempts to incriminate Hunter Biden via Zelensky. Though I don’t know any more than that.

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 16:51

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

The No-Fly Zone appeals and rejections are a tactic.

Ukraine asks, NATO says no. Putin doesn't get his propaganda victory.

Meanwhile the western powers are giving Ukraine military aid, financial aid and 'sanctions aid' from outside the borders.

I hope so
DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 16:53

Hands up who thinks a russian death squad looks like a mother and her 5 year old and a toddler?

Ooh I don't know, I have watched Black Widow and Killing Eve recently Wink

ClaudineClare · 08/03/2022 16:54

You don't know what they might be hiding in those pushchairs, RTB.

How come other countries aren't bothered about the potential for this sort of skullduggery?

The UK really is taking the lead, isn't it. The lead in being xenophobic.

notimagain · 08/03/2022 16:57

@elephantmarchingin

I too am very worried about a no fly zone. I think unfortunately people have heard from Ukraine that it would help but have no real understanding of it e.g this mean Ukraine cannot fly either.

In addition the humanitarian corridors are being shelled not from the air so would really be declaring war for no reason

Yep, I’m not really sure what the thinking behind even limited no fly Confused and in any event you are absolutely right with your second para…a no fly corridor, limited or not , would not protect from artillery, rocket (which the Russians like) or surface to surface missile strike.

I think as RTB says those calling for it are playing politics and indulging in a bit of virtue signaling

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 16:58

Expansion on earlier story from other sources

Olivia Gazis @olivia_gazis
Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines: Russia's invasion of Ukraine has produced a "shock to the geopolitical order" that we are just beginning to understand.

"The invasion has in fact proceeded consistent with the plan we assessed the Russian military would follow."

Russia is facing "significantly more resistance" from Ukraine. "Russia's failure to rapidly seize Kyiv and overwhelm Ukrainian forces has deprived Moscow of the quick military victory" that had probably been expected.

We judge it will be "especially challenging for the Russians to hold and control Ukrainian territory and install a sustainable, pro-Russian regime in Kyiv in the face of what we assess is likely to be a persistent and significant insurgency."

Russian forces are operating with "reckless disregard for the safety of non-combatants," launching strikes in urban areas and near critical infrastructure.

The IC is ready to document and hold Russian actors accountable for their actions, DNI says.

We judge that Putin "did not anticipate" the degree of coordination of western sanctions or accompanying response from the private sector, DNI says.

"Nevertheless our analysts assess that Putin is unlikely to be deterred by such setbacks and instead may escalate" its aggression

Putin feels "aggrieved" and increasingly sees the conflict that "he cannot afford to lose," Director of National Intelligence says. "His nuclear saber rattling is very much in line with this assessment" - though U.S. has not observed posture changes

CIA Director William Burns: Vladimir Putin has been stewing in a "combustible combination of grievance and ambition for many years." He went to war on the basis of a number of assumptions that led him to believe Russia faced a favorable landscape... "he's been proven wrong"

Defense Intelligence Agency Director LTG Scott Berrier says Russia's military has suffered "somewhere between 2,000-4,000" casualties - a "low-confidence" assessment he says is drawn from intelligence and open sources

The intelligence community is watching "very closely" for movements related to Putin's strategic/nuclear forces but "we're not seeing something at this stage that indicates that he is doing something different than what we've seen in the past," DNI says

As this continues, we'll see Russia "spinning narratives that are false," DNI Haines says.

CIA's Burns points to false accusations of Ukraine's use of chemical weapons in the Donbass - narratives Russia could continue fabricating "particularly as they get more desperate."

Russia and other actors continue to support "particular groups" within the U.S. as part of a malign influence campaign, say DNI Haines and FBI Director Wray. "It does continue to be a phenomenon; we should expect it to continue to be a threat."

"I believe that it continues to be the case that they are getting closer together," DNI Haines says of Russia and China, adding, "I think there's a limit to which it will go."

CIA Director Burns says Xi and Chinese leadership are "unsettled" by events in Ukraine and how they have driven Europe and the US closer together. They are also wary of the potential "reputational damage" their close association with Moscow could produce

NSA Director Gen. Paul Nakasone says his agency has a "high degree of vigilance for a number of different threat streams," including ones "not necessarily predicated" on events in Ukraine

"Whatever we can lawfully seize, we're going to go after," says FBI Director Chris Wray of U.S. efforts to hold Russian oligarchs accountable

My bold.

US have clear eyes on nuke stuff by sound of it.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/03/2022 17:01

I hope everyone's OK btw. These are very troubling times and I can see that a few posters on these threads have been struggling a bit.

Putin was a fool to threaten or even hint at nuclear relatiation. It made his 'military operation' in Ukraine the business of every person on the planet, instead of some distant post-Soviet conflict that most people didn't give a shit about, and he would have got away with (again).

Massive ego-driven miscalculation. He has threatened everybody's children. Everybody's.

Putin won't do it, anyway.

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 17:01

There is no such thing as a limited no fly zone

That letter is not to be taken seriously and I don't think anyone is

Freedombpass · 08/03/2022 17:03

I daresay many of those calling for a no fly zone and saying YEAH LET'S STAND UP TO PUTIN WHO CARES ABOUT WW3 really has any inkling of what it's like to live through a war in your own home country. My parents were refugees and they came here in the early 80s. My paternal grandmother lost almost all her children. My Dad never got over the things he saw and to this day he is massively psychologically damaged because of it.

ENoeuf · 08/03/2022 17:05

Is anyone listening to him speak to the Commons?

Words · 08/03/2022 17:06

Yes

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/03/2022 17:06

@ENoeuf

Is anyone listening to him speak to the Commons?
Yes
ENoeuf · 08/03/2022 17:07

It’s unbearable to have this invisible limit on what can be done. Almost voyeuristic. I don’t know how this can end positively for Ukraine.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/03/2022 17:07

The subtitles are very good btw

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 17:07

@ENoeuf

Is anyone listening to him speak to the Commons?
Yes
DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 17:08

Which channel has subtitles?

ENoeuf · 08/03/2022 17:08

Oh I’m listening on the radio. The interpreter is doing a good job. He has really really showed what a leader is.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 17:08

Im out atm so difficult to watch Zelensky live where i am

Press Gazette @pressgazette
BBC will resume English language reporting from Russia tonight after suspending it at the end of last week. It said it considered the implications of the country's new "fake news" law "alongside the urgent need to report from inside Russia".

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/03/2022 17:09

@DuncinToffee

Which channel has subtitles?
I'm on Parliamant and put my TV's subtitles on - someone is doing a good job for a change