Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

[cakeorwine]

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

Starting to worry the no fly zone will be implemented by NATO. I have been watching on the tv quite a lot of high profile figures who support it including former policy planners for NATO.

I'd be quite concerned about this too. I understand the impulse to do something to help and like you I've seen some people advocating for it but equally there are many people arguing it wouldn't help Ukraine and could in fact be harmful for them. Whatever they decide I think it has to be based on what will give Ukraine an advantage with endangering even more lives. I'm glad I don't have the responsibility for making those decisions. Once it's done we're in and there will be no avoiding direct conflict with Russia which would not help Ukraine at all.

Please say they’re not considering this?!

twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1501209093234638859?s=21

[quote Jisforjelly]Please say they’re not considering this?!

twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1501209093234638859?s=21[/quote]
US foreign policy heavyweights call for limited no-fly zone over Ukraine.

The group of 27 foreign policy leaders urged the U.S. to impose a limited no-fly zone over Ukraine starting with protection for humanitarian corridors, Politico reported.

Be interesting to see who those 27 are. I'll look for some more details.

I think a limited no fly zone is not the same thing TBH.

[quote Jisforjelly]Please say they’re not considering this?!

twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1501209093234638859?s=21[/quote]
Won't happen.

Its Kyiv asking for it and over inflating the support from senior us figures.

There are lots calling for it NOT to happen too. I’m hoping it doesn’t. I don’t think this is a good idea.

Further information
www.politico.com/playbook

Its Kyiv asking for it and over inflating the support from senior us figures

Hopefully this is the case. Will the address to Parliament at 5 pm be on BBC?

@Sunnierdays Who are these calling for it?

The current NATO aren’t, fortunately.

@Sunnierdays

Starting to worry the no fly zone will be implemented by NATO. I have been watching on the tv quite a lot of high profile figures who support it including former policy planners for NATO.

I'm worried about this also but as far as I can see and heard this won't be implemented

Doesn't all of NATO have to agree it? They were saying a pretty emphatic no last time I checked.

Looks like it'll be on BBC news , Biden on now

[quote DuncinToffee]Further information
www.politico.com/playbook[/quote]
“We, the undersigned, urge the Biden administration, together with NATO allies, to impose a limited No-Fly Zone over Ukraine starting with protection for humanitarian corridors that were agreed upon in talks between Russian and Ukrainian officials on Thursday. NATO leaders should convey to Russian officials that they do not seek direct confrontation with Russian forces, but they must also make clear that they will not countenance Russian attacks on civilian areas.”

This strikes us as a sincere attempt to answer the nagging question that many in the West have about wanting to do something about the humanitarian catastrophe Putin has unleashed without escalating into a potential nuclear conflict. The proposal described here is strictly about protecting civilians and enforcing the humanitarian corridors that Putin claims to back.

@Autumnwater

Not that I am condoning buying Russian oil but it makes me uncomfortable that it appears the US has likely pressured the UK into this ban and then it happens that we will now be buying stocks from the US. Just seems very convenient for them to put pressure on other countries and then make countries rely on the US to supply them

I don't think the UK were pressured. They were saying on the news last night that the UK and Canada were largely self sufficient on gas but the Dutch were reliant on Russian gas.

I think the UK have actually been doing the opposite and trying to push the ban onto the EU.

I guess there are a few heavyweights on that list. It's not a very impressive list overall though (in DC terms).

@hassletassle

Its Kyiv asking for it and over inflating the support from senior us figures

Hopefully this is the case. Will the address to Parliament at 5 pm be on BBC?

Try bbc parliament. Its apparently being streamed so i would have thought it would be on bbc parliament if not bbc news.

US announces ban on Russian oil

President Biden has confirmed a complete US ban on Russian oil, gas and coal imports.

He says the move means the "American people will deal another powerful blow" to Putin's leadership.

"We will not be part of subsidising Putin's war," Biden adds.

Despite mounting fears of rising gas prices, the move has widespread bipartisan political support in the US.

Oil prices have been surging in anticipation of Biden's announcement - with the price of brent crude, the international benchmark, rising more than 5%, to $130 a barrel.

The US move is more immediate than in Europe, which is far more reliant on Russian oil and gas.

BBC live

@dreamingbohemian

I guess there are a few heavyweights on that list. It's not a very impressive list overall though (in DC terms).

This seems mad. Russia made it clear that they would consider that an act of war. Doesn't it also give credence to the threatening image of NATO that Russia has spouted (in terms of enabling that narrative, not proving it)? I doubt I know what I'm talking about but this makes me very nervous

@RobotValkyrie What strikes me with that logic is how similar it is to the "smaller scale" blame-the-victim logic of domestic abusers and their apologists: "look what you've made me do!"

I've been saying exactly the same thing to dh: that Putin's justification is very much along the lines of a domestic abuser (both emotional and physical). "Look what you made me do." "It's your fault that I had to hit you." Complete with the gaslighting "I know you love me." "We belong together." ....and more ominously, "You can never leave me."

Pippa Crear @pippacrear
NEW: Former MP Richard Harrington as been appointed as Minister for Refugees in Communities Department and the Home Office - and given a peerage to do so.

Sunder Katwala @sundersays
Richard Harrington, the former Watford MP, was minister for Syrian resettlement. "It was, I feel, the most fundamentally worthwhile thing I’ve done in government", he has said.

Noise suggests this is a really good appointment and is someone who genuinely has a reputation for caring about refugees.

Harrington stood down in 2019 after being one of the 21 who lost the whip over blocking No Deal Brexit.

Skynews twitter feed says they are showing the Zelensky address so pretty sure BBC will then.

I too am very worried about a no fly zone. I think unfortunately people have heard from Ukraine that it would help but have no real understanding of it e.g this mean Ukraine cannot fly either.

In addition the humanitarian corridors are being shelled not from the air so would really be declaring war for no reason

This seems mad. Russia made it clear that they would consider that an act of war. Doesn't it also give credence to the threatening image of NATO that Russia has spouted (in terms of enabling that narrative, not proving it)? I doubt I know what I'm talking about but this makes me very nervous

Its virtue signalling nonsense. Real heavyweights are behind it and they know it. Its for domestic consumption and political careers.

[quote prettybird]@RobotValkyrie What strikes me with that logic is how similar it is to the "smaller scale" blame-the-victim logic of domestic abusers and their apologists: "look what you've made me do!"

I've been saying exactly the same thing to dh: that Putin's justification is very much along the lines of a domestic abuser (both emotional and physical). "Look what you made me do." "It's your fault that I had to hit you." Complete with the gaslighting "I know you love me." "We belong together." ....and more ominously, "You can never leave me." [/quote]
Worse still is when others back that up with look at what you made him do : (

Reports that UK&US&EU have agreed to ban Russian Oil. That will hurt their economy quite quickly.
Putin was threatening to stop oil exports to countries that put sanctions on him.
A number of miscalculations all round.

If a no-fly zone went ahead for Mariupol for humanitarian reasons, I'm sure Russia would take it very badly. He would capitalize on it within Russia.

But I'm not sure a single leader in the world would see it as intentional warfare given his history of twisting the truth. They could however use it for anti-Western rhetoric within their own countries.

A nasty thought that has occurred - I hope ISIS don't capitalize on this.