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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

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17
theDudesmummy · 08/03/2022 14:10

Cross post too!

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 14:15

I suspect that Putin's pattern of going to war when re-election time starts looming has something to do with it; also actually Angela Merkel leaving. I think he actually respected her more than almost anyone. Both with a fair bit of experience of the GDR. Biden doesn't on the surface seem a very strong/showy US president (although I suspect myself he's sensible and can see beyond the end of his own nose). Someone said that the invasion has to be either winter when the ground is hard or summer, and if he'd been able to waltz in in 3 days all these logistics problems in the north wouldn't have been an issue.

This thread keeps talking about how well the North is doing but I think for a real win, ie Russian withdrawal, the South would need to be freed too. But ... in a way, that does imply a win is possible, at high cost.

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 14:18

actually, somehow I don't think he woudl have dared invade when Merkel was in charge! ... he must have got a shock when the new Chancellor turned out to have quite a backbone too.

triggery · 08/03/2022 14:20

The article seemed a bit biased to me but I don't know. I'm trying to keep up but it doesn't seem like we're getting the whole story. You go on social media and there's Scottish grandads being hailed as heroes while Ukrainians are on French news saying the government is corrupt and Zelensky is a puppet and journalists are being murdered for speaking out. This Guardian journalist's line about Ukraine definitely not being Nazis etc... but the government funds them and there's videos all over the place of them battering Indians and Black people. Confused Tiktoks full of Russian families going bankrupt and 8,000 comments telling them its their own fault -- as if that's not going to breed the next generation of absolute hatred for the west.

Propaganda from both sides coming from all angles and I can't really see a way out of it where people just go back to their normal lives and forget about it.

Maybe I'm just being a doomer though.

BreadInCaptivity · 08/03/2022 14:21

www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-7

Latest war assessment from the Institute for the Study of War.

Predicts Russia is re-grouping for a large push on Kyiv in the next few days.

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 14:22

@Costlyfox

Honestly I think that article is mostly bollocks. I'm sorry I can't explain my own credentials without outing myself but I'm an academic in this area and I'm really unimpressed with it. For example:

He could escalate the conflict to another region, such as the Balkans

This is less likely now than before, Serbia would be the vehicle for this and they will be very concerned about the ineffectiveness of the Russian military effort and global isolation.

He may turn the lights off in a major US city with a cyber-attack

There has been a huge amount of work in recent years trying to establish global norms for cyber attacks and clarifying red lines. All the major powers understand that a cyber attack on this level (which would lead to considerable human losses) would be treated as equivalent to a conventional armed attack (including for the purposes of invoking NATO's Article 5). So unlikely.

Most frighteningly, he has raised the alert level of Russian nuclear forces

This was more frightening a week ago, we now know that in practice this entailed very little change.

That's only the first paragraph!

if we boil it down, there are really only two paths toward ending the war

This is nonsense. There are still many ways things could play out. As a guide do not believe people who say there are only one or two possible futures (the ones they advocate).

Other things that annoy me about this article:

The assumption that Russia can take Kyiv
Presenting Wagner as some kind of elite special forces (they are neo-Nazi mercenaries)
Assuming Putin would use nuclear weapons because lots of RAND wargames say so

Sorry for long post but I can see how people would freak out a bit reading that and I just want to reassure you that I've never even heard of this guy before and I think his analysis is deeply flawed.

Stick with Lawrence Freedman : )

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 14:25

Sorry to clarify, I do think Kyiv is still in grave danger but any future scenario that assumes Russia will take it is premature at this point (IMHO)

jgw1 · 08/03/2022 14:27

[quote theDudesmummy]@jgw1 unfortunately, the conventional army being not up to much may well increase the likelihood of Russia using nuclear, not necessarily all-out intercontinental war, but strategic nuclear, as described in the piece I linked above. With his tanks being destroyed or blocked, his soldiers killed and captured and his economy tanking, you have you wonder what Putin's thought processes will be.

A more positive thought would be wondering what the average Russian citizen's thought processes may be if all this becomes clear to them. He is a dictator but even dictators can be overthrown.[/quote]
I share your concern.
But hope we are a long way from that point.

LaingsAcidTab · 08/03/2022 14:29

@Costlyfox - I find The Guardian generally a bit of a panicky doom-mongerer. It has been during Covid, and it appears to be now. As does The Telegraph, just to be non-partisan about it.

Costlyfox · 08/03/2022 14:32

@dreamingbohemian, thank you for your reassuring and informed response.

I'm learning so much.

Will check out Lawrence Freedman.

Costlyfox · 08/03/2022 14:36

Noted, @LaingsAcidTab. The Guardian live feed is an easy one-stop-shop to dip into, but other suggestions would be welcome. Mostly I'm using this thread and clicking on links out. I haven't got the time (or mental or emotional energy) to lose myself in Twitter. Confused

I did email my (Conservative) MP re refugees this morning - first time I've done that in a seriously long time.

Saku · 08/03/2022 14:37

AIBU to think...... what actually Ukraine has gained out of this? instead of fooling itself. YES if asked what Zelensky gained out of it, is obviously he became a history hero forever.

What Putin has gained? he became a history monster. I agree.

But we cant avoid So many people are dead in Ukraine, Millions and millions are getting displaced leaving all of what they earned lifetime. They have to leave their homeland where they grew up that can not be replaced by anything. If they will be asked- do they want to leave the place? NO they dont.
Reason -Zelensky(Ukraine govt.) want to join the Nato/EU because he want their country safe and People safe ...... is it ?? Now this is how their country/people became safe? ask the people- have they became safe?
War could have been avoided by talking to Russia(Lets say Monster Putin). It would have been a better position to negotiate with him then than Now. What have been gained by destroying some Russian aircraft/ tanks/ soldiers( where most of them are 20-25 year old kids who may have/ not have idea what they are doing or tricked whatever.)?
And then begging in front of whole world 'Please save us. Please save us.' If you will not save we will die. Still there is time to stop it (Yes by agreeing the 3 terms of Mr. monster Putin) because it saves lives. Is Zelensky is not being selfish. (Just talk big big words big big morals,stories.. we will do that this and all).
Whole Idea about is - IS free speech/freedom/Love.
Why the love coming from west is the only LOVE. Can't they love and live with their more close brothers(where many of them still consider them Russian) their language/gene/appearance/parent-culture have been connected in a way directly or indirectly. As every (means every) country has one or two areas within where people have rows/disputes that doesn't mean the whole country should be sacrificed.
Why cant they have peace with them as other countries handle? Why they are begging everywhere. They should stand up and negotiate like OK "you dont want us to join NATO then Give us privilege over this this this .... and so on ..... as Russia only put 3 terms, Ask other benefits (try to squeeze as much as possible) like two countries do agreements between them ........... if not.. then
Now what you are gaining? ........ Getting your people killed, whole country being destroyed, begging to everyone and posing hero... Hmm

worriedatthistime · 08/03/2022 14:40

@Saku and some of those killed in ukraine have been children
Why should any country be able to tell another country what they should do , it should be up to the people who live in that country pe who they elect

theDudesmummy · 08/03/2022 14:42

@dreamingbohemian thanks for that, I suspected that someone would be along to disagree with that dude, who seemed to me to have quite an extreme view, but I am but a (relatively well- informed) layperson in this area and so don't always know who/what to listen to. The Guardian has published some wildly diverse opinions recently, I am beginning to wonder about trusting it...

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 14:43

You're welcome CostlyFox

This is his substack: substack.com/profile/69709932-lawrence-freedman

And he's also on Twitter

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 14:45

[quote theDudesmummy]@dreamingbohemian thanks for that, I suspected that someone would be along to disagree with that dude, who seemed to me to have quite an extreme view, but I am but a (relatively well- informed) layperson in this area and so don't always know who/what to listen to. The Guardian has published some wildly diverse opinions recently, I am beginning to wonder about trusting it...[/quote]
It's tricky because I think it's actually good to publish a diverse range of views -- and who knows, maybe that guy will turn out to be right! But I think the bar for very alarming articles should be very high, and to me personally, that article did not have enough credibility.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 14:49

@Saku Putin wouldn't need to be a 'monster' or Zelensky a 'hero' if Russia hadn't invaded.

Saku · 08/03/2022 14:58

@Wrongkindofovercoat I am asking the next step now what?
They will ask why this happened(Why they gone for nato)? we say why that happened (why they invaded)?
But people are getting killed.... They have being displaced ..... their lives are getting ruined ..... NOW.

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 14:59

Saku the war has nothing to do with NATO and/or EU membership.
Putin doesn't believe Ukraine has the right to exist.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 15:02

@BreadInCaptivity

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-7

Latest war assessment from the Institute for the Study of War.

Predicts Russia is re-grouping for a large push on Kyiv in the next few days.

Thats my reading too.

Its been far too quiet in Kyiv. They need to get Kyiv for a strategic win and moral boost. They can't afford a prolonged war, so they will go for Kyiv.

This has been said for a while that they have perhaps one shot at a real brutal hammer blow at Kyiv.

If Kyiv can withstand it Russia is largely spent. If it cannot then Russia will eventually occupy but there will be insurgency.

Lots of ifs and buts in there too.

In terms of nukes, i really keep thinking its worth stressing that Putin will only go down that route if he thinks he can make a high risk strategic gain. But most importantly that the power of nukes is less about using them and more about the fear of them.

Thus my logic goes as follows: their strategic power for Putin isnt about killing as many people as possible, its is about frightening as many people as possible and causing panic and unrest in western countries to try and force the public to get their governments to back down in some way.

If you think about it in that sense, you get different scenarios and possibilities which are much more likely than mutually assured destruction. And again they dont necessary include actually firing one.

Far more likely he'd ratchet up threats first etc etc and say he will do x, perhaps even on y date. Can you imagine the chaos of announcing that would unleash? I think it would be difficult to fully contain public fear.

Then other scenarios would be doing tests etc. Thats a pandoras box - once one country does it other may also (hello NK) but I don't think any country in the world wants that (bar perhaps NK).

We don't know what China might do yet if Russia start threatening nukes. As much as they dont want to interfere and will happily see us all fight it out between us, i do think there could be a point where China might reasonably say 'enough' too. They have plenty to gain already. And a lot to lose if they lose the stability of markets in US, EU and UK.

I also think about the option of forcing a nuclear accident. I think this is possible to avoid this 'blame' problem with nukes.

But overall I would still go with the idea that we aren't going to get mutually assured destruction. Its hard to see an exit ramp in any direction though at this stage before then. So I think thats why there is so much fear because we can't see an exit. It doesn't mean there isn't one. And this situation have a habit of suddenly have a life of their own.

Ultimately I think if we are in that path it was locked in a long time before the invasion and we are stuck on this route for now. There's not a lot we can do about it, except understand that he wants to scare us more than kill us even now, because there is no stategic advantage for him to gain by killing us in the UK. Thus try and keep a lid on your fear and dont panic. You cant do anything anyway...

theDudesmummy · 08/03/2022 15:04

Thanks for the link to Prof Freedman, a much more balanced read (or maybe I prefer somewhat more positve thinking). I will keep an eye on his substack and Twitter.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 15:07

Re possible regime change? Men are self serving bastards. If they see it coming, they'll jump ship or try and be opportunistic.

The scenario ive not seen is some kind of civil war (rather than a clean decapitation of Putin himself).

Jisforjelly · 08/03/2022 15:08

Has anyone seen this regarding EU and oil?

www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/eu-russia-oil-gas-ukraine-war-b2031117.html

FOJN · 08/03/2022 15:11

The Chivvis article in the Guardian made it sound as if Ukraine was a pawn in a war game between Russia and the US.

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 15:20

Kitty Donaldson @kitty_donaldson
^NEW via @Joe_Mayes

*U.K. government plans to phase out all imports of Russian oil

*The move will be in concert with theUnited Statesand the ban will be phased in over the coming months

*The ban won’t apply to Russian gas