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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
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17
RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 11:55

Kate McCann @katemccann
👀I think Liz Truss may have just announced the location of the Home Office's new 'pop-up' visa centre for Ukrainian refugees in France. It is not in Calais, it is in Lille, almost 75 miles away. Home Office spox refused to say where it was just 20 mins ago.

A lot of back and forth overnight after calls for the Home Office to set up in Calais where there are reports of hundreds of Ukrainians who want to get to the UK. HO said a centre, then just staff there - we understand those staff are there to redirect people to other places.

After the Foreign Secretary told the House a new visa application centre is being set up in Lille, a Home Office source tells me no final decision has been taken...

Omfg

So eithe Liz Truss deliberately (to steal Patels thunder) or inadvertently let details slip (cos shes that shit) or the home office and foreign office are both utterly shit at communicating with each other properly or/and the Home Office are having yet another howler of a day.

Im not sure which theory holds most sway. Its dire.

Lille is on the Eurostar route though so would make some sense.

jgw1 · 08/03/2022 11:57

@MarshaBradyo

Ben Wallace seems good on plane issue and balance between providing lethal aid and protecting U.K. - tricky but he acknowledges that
It is almost as if the Tory party have accidentally found someone competent. It makes a pleasant change.
BoreOfWhabylon · 08/03/2022 12:00

@dreamingbohemian

The latest from Lawrence Freedman on the war:

samf.substack.com/p/space-and-time?s=r

He continues to see Russia doing very poorly.

Thanks for this. Comments below the article are also very interesting.
EsmaCannonball · 08/03/2022 12:00

What do people make of the Z symbol that has sprung up in Russia? When I first saw it on tanks at the beginning of the invasion I assumed it was something with a meaningless military designation but now it's being used in Russia like the swastika. It's making me think that Putin has much bigger and darker plans and Ukraine is just the first step in a very nasty strategy.

As for 'poking the bear,' the problem is we've spent years tickling the bear under the chin and feeding it honey and now the time has come to pay the price for that. Putin isn't reacting to Western actions here. He's not going to refrain from invading another country if we play nice.

On that last point, there has been this idea in the West that if you trade with an undemocratic country you gain leverage over it and if you include it in cultural events it becomes influenced by progressive values. What we are now seeing is that this strategy risks enabling and funding a dictator and handing leverage to the rogue state. So, on that basis, how do people feel about the World Cup in Qatar? Are current events not teaching us a big lesson on that one?

Peregrina · 08/03/2022 12:01

If Ben Wallace is competent, expect him to be sidelined in the near future.

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 12:02

frivolously I wonder if actually Navalny -is- dead and people are simply pretending he's still alive?

I do honestly find it astonishing that he manages to get any viewpoint out at all. Putin is more than ruthless enough to gag him.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 12:02

Via newstatesman

This reads like Patel wants the refugee rules (possibly actually the sponsorship scheme) to cover people without ties to the uk. Its No10 and the foreign office (Truss) opposing it.

That would explain why no progress on this and i wonder if the sponsorship scheme is going to end up quietly ditched.

Interesting to see that Patel is apparently more pro-refugee than others!!!!

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
Roussette · 08/03/2022 12:05

It is almost as if the Tory party have accidentally found someone competent. It makes a pleasant change

I think we are all so desperately seeking someone high up we can trust in these difficult times and he fits the bill for now. Because Johnson/Patel and their ilk have been seen to lie so prolifically and behave so abominably, we just tune them out.

cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 12:07

@Roussette

It is almost as if the Tory party have accidentally found someone competent. It makes a pleasant change

I think we are all so desperately seeking someone high up we can trust in these difficult times and he fits the bill for now. Because Johnson/Patel and their ilk have been seen to lie so prolifically and behave so abominably, we just tune them out.

Very much The boy who cried wolf
OP posts:
DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 12:08

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
There are three key aspects to the UK response to Ukraine, all of them crucial: Arms, sanctions and refugees. We've been very good on the first, piss-poor on the second and calamitous on the third.

heldinadream · 08/03/2022 12:17

@CaveMum thank you for the Warfare podcast recommendation, I feel woefully ignorant in the field of war history except really for WW2 and some fragments of this and that, so I'm going to listen to some of these. Really appreciate the recommendation.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 12:24

@Roussette

It is almost as if the Tory party have accidentally found someone competent. It makes a pleasant change

I think we are all so desperately seeking someone high up we can trust in these difficult times and he fits the bill for now. Because Johnson/Patel and their ilk have been seen to lie so prolifically and behave so abominably, we just tune them out.

The support for Ben Wallace is from ConservativeHome which is grassroots membership. Thats interesting.

I think there is some lack of nuance between tory mps and members when saying about sidelining for competence.

Members are more likely to be business owners. They put up with Johnson due to his public popularity, but have actually always questioned competence.

Who the MPs want as next leader and who grassroots want are different things.

MPs might try to sideline someone competent, but ultimately grassroots do look for it more.

Johnson was always means to a brexity end and his failings knowingly over looked.

With economic issues growing and a tiring of incompetence a substantial part of the grassroots will look for a competent contender after Johnson.

The other half will look for someone very right wing.

I do think at another time Stewart would have been popular amongst members but Brexit was the key issue at the time.

If/when Johnson goes of course.

Jisforjelly · 08/03/2022 12:25

I’ve read a few comments on Facebook about the cost of energy and people are feeling very anxious about it and rightly so (myself included) I’ve also read comments saying they feel that the money they’ve given to Ukraine isn’t fair when people here are struggling in poverty. I wonder if this will be a more common attitude going forward?

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 12:25

Kate McCann @KateEMcCann

Home Office CONFIRMS new visa application centre will be in Lille.

blackwingedstilt · 08/03/2022 12:28

@EsmaCannonball
What do people make of the Z symbol that has sprung up in Russia?

There was an article about this on the BBC news website yesterday:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60644832

I thought it was strange as it's not in the Cyrillic alphabet ("z" sound looks like a 3)

dreamingbohemian · 08/03/2022 12:29

@EsmaCannonball I always thought it was a huge mistake to give the World Cup to Russia and Qatar, but FIFA are irredeemably corrupt

There has always been a big debate about whether engaging with authoritarian countries can gradually make them less authoritarian. The record is rather mixed.

notimagain · 08/03/2022 12:30

What do people make of the Z symbol that has sprung up in Russia? When I first saw it on tanks at the beginning of the invasion I assumed it was something with a meaningless military designation

It’s wasn’t a political symbol, at least not at first.

It has now been established that it’s one of about half a dozen different Russian unit markings…FWIW not actually that meaningless if you don’t want to be shot at by your own side (The Ukrainian Forces have or had a lot of the same equipment as the Russians), and it also helps Russian units identify each other.

but now it's being used in Russia like the swastika

Wouldn’t care to comment on why that has happened in this place..I’d use a lot of rude words…

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 12:31

Meanwhile Ireland

Stephen Murphy @SMurphyTV
Today’s update: 2,123 Ukrainian citizens have arrived in Ireland visa-free since the invasion. 334 arrived yesterday

cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 12:36

[quote dreamingbohemian]@EsmaCannonball I always thought it was a huge mistake to give the World Cup to Russia and Qatar, but FIFA are irredeemably corrupt

There has always been a big debate about whether engaging with authoritarian countries can gradually make them less authoritarian. The record is rather mixed.[/quote]
I think Russia will be isolated for a very long time after this - unless serious efforts are made internally to change their attitude.

OP posts:
Flickasmum · 08/03/2022 12:37

Yes, thank you @Cavemum! I've just downloaded the first episode on Spotify

CaveMum · 08/03/2022 12:38

[quote heldinadream]@CaveMum thank you for the Warfare podcast recommendation, I feel woefully ignorant in the field of war history except really for WW2 and some fragments of this and that, so I'm going to listen to some of these. Really appreciate the recommendation.[/quote]
@heldinadream you're very welcome. There's a group of history "sister" podcasts that are all interlinked under the "History Hit" banner. As well as "Warfare" (which I've only recently started) I also listen to "Not Just The Tudors" and "Dan Snow's History Hit", but they also have "Gone Medieval", "The Ancients", "Historical Fiction" and "How and Why History".

gogohm · 08/03/2022 12:40

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60659365

This story really hit me - choosing to send your child to another country, too reminiscent of WW2 kindertransport.

Hug your children tight tonight

PestorPeston · 08/03/2022 12:48

I very much doubt we have just given arms and money to Ukraine. It would be very out of character for us not to be charging them.

FacebookPhotos · 08/03/2022 12:48

@CaveMum

Can I just say, for those that want to learn a bit more about military history (everything from Napoleon to the fall of the USSR, plus recent episodes relevant to the current situation) then the podcast Warfare is well worth listening to. The episodes are generally about 30 mins long so just right for a walk.
Thanks for this recommendation. I will check it out.
RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 12:51

Kate McCann @kateEmccann
Sounds like chaos at UK visa application centre in Rzeszow, Poland. Not enough staff, computer problems, refugees told a paper list queue would get priority over online bookings - 150 on paper list then told online bookings prioritised instead. People being turned away...

Elderly people, children, desperate families with nowhere else to go and no accurate info. It is cold, there are not enough chairs, no food and those waiting in person hoping to get through are not allowed to leave or they lose their place in a queue which may not be honoured..

More on this on Sky News later today.

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