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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
notimagain · 08/03/2022 09:54

@ChimChimeny

Ooh can you elaborate please for those who aren't in the know?!

Not much to elaborate on simply to say that (and as has been mentioned by upthread and widely discussed in other fora (?sp) Over the last few days it’s been a “given” for many years that the Russians (and the Soviets before) didn’t encourage their lower ranks/junior officers to display any initiative. As a result if the General/Lt Col was incapacitated there was a fair chance whole units will be very ineffective very quickly.

It’s a long time back but I was more familiar with the “air”side of things than the tank and infantry stuff and even in that environment we were aware that the Russian front line pilots were very often much more centrally controlled and less encouraged to take the initiative than their western equivalents.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 09:54

Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty @RFERL
"China has been very quietly enforcing U.S. sanctions," former U.S. Treasury official @PeterPiatetsky tells @ReidStan

www.rferl.org/a/china-rescue-russia-economy/31737915.html
Why China Won't Rescue Russia's Flailing Economy

The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), a Chinese-led development bank, suspended all business with Russia and Belarus on March 3, a possible sign of the limits to Beijing and Moscow's relationship. Similarly, the Shanghai-based New Development Bank also suspended business with Russia the same day.

And

According to a Reuters report, Russian firms are also rushing to open Chinese bank accounts in hopes of circumventing the worst economic pain brought by sanctions, while the Financial Times reported on March 4 that investors are increasingly betting on Beijing boosting trade with Russia to soften the blow from sanctions.

And

RFE/RL: What role could China play in supporting Russia's economy? We have seen some headlines about oil and wheat and there has been a push in recent years to sign deals in Chinese yuan, leaving them outside the U.S.-dollar-based international financial system. What options are on the table for Beijing?

Peter Piatetsky: Beijing has all the cards here and it's a very bad situation for Russia because Russia is a net exporter, but it doesn't have that many different exports minerals, diamonds, [uranium, wheat], but primarily oil and Europe is its main destination for oil.

China could buy up that extra oil, but it does not seem to be willing to and Russia's main external trading relationship is with China. However, China's main external trading relationship is with the United States. So what we've seen so far is that China has been very quietly enforcing U.S. sanctions.

A very good example we can look at is [sanctions] against North Korea and Iran. China essentially designated certain banks that aren't [integral] to the economy that can work with Iran and North Korea, and if they get sanctioned then that's an [acceptable] loss, but they're trying to not expose the broader [Chinese] economy.

China can essentially do one thing here, which is to buy more Russian goods, but they don't seem to be willing to do that and Russia doesn't have that many different goods that China is willing to buy.

And

RFE/RL: How do you see the economic hit from Russia affecting the wider region, especially across Central Asia and the Caucasus, which have deep ties to Russia's economy?

Piatetsky: For Central Asia, this is an absolute disaster, a lot of those economies are heavily remittance-dependent and with Russians losing money and Russians losing jobs, there are going to be less jobs all around.

There's not going to be any protection for Central Asian migrants that are losing jobs, many of [which] are unofficial. So, you're going to see Russians losing jobs [and] Central Asians will lose those jobs much quicker so will Georgians and the remittances that they were sending back to their home countries will also fall.

The article goes on to explain theres little benefit to China to bail out Russia, but it has huge opportunities in stepping into the economic and political vacuum that this creates in central asia.

The article pretty much says that Putin's only economic way out, is through ending the war.

We've already seen the 'leaked FSB letter' about total Russian economic collapse by June.

This doesn't seem to offer an alternate exit route at all.

HappyWinter · 08/03/2022 09:57

People really need to stop telling us to not be political. It's like the wartime version of Be Kind.

Politics matters because it affects our lives, sometimes we do have to talk about it. It isn't about being party political, I want our government to step up and do the right thing in the refugee crisis. I would critisise any government who didn't, regardless of party. We have a cabinet that have been picked solely to say yes to whatever Johnson has wanted and not for their talent or previous experience (those with either have been pushed out), and that is not what you need in a crisis as we've already seen with the government response to covid. You need ministers who are good at their jobs and can see the bigger picture.

ClaudineClare · 08/03/2022 10:01

@DuncinToffee

Fillipo Grandi (UN High Commissioner for Refugees)

Today the outflow of refugees from Ukraine reaches two million people.

Two million.

Two million people in a week and a half. Has there ever been a situation involving such huge numbers in such a short time?
vera99 · 08/03/2022 10:01

Paul Krugman: Everything Is Political
An interview with the Nobel prize-winning economist on what to do about the “zombie ideas” that animate contemporary political discourse.

daily.jstor.org/paul-krugman-everything-is-political/

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 10:02

@Damnloginpopup This thread is informative and very interesting.

There were always going to be some suspicious folk trying to derail it (as well as people genuinely holding a different point of view).

Overall there's a lot of interesting stuff in the threads. Starting them was a very good idea and there's still quite a lot of worth in them.

workisnotawolf · 08/03/2022 10:04

I agree that we should take loads of refugees because my politics is central left leaning. However, I do understand that our government is right leaning and would rather go for military support to Ukraine, training, weapons, strength and tell us that taking a huge amount of refugees could be a security risk without proper checks because in any refugee en masse crisis, criminals and double agents will arrive too (in a tiny minority). I also understand that our government is married to Brexit and their daft immigration policies.
But what is actually better for Ukraine? Is it better if we help their fight through weapons and eg support Poland financially in settling refugees? Would that be better for those refugees?

What financial help if any are we giving to other countries to help with refugees?

Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 10:06

Question: the flaws in the Russian attack have been quite evident in the north, and there's been some analysis of why to do with equipment and organisation.

The South seems to have been more successful. Is that because of easier terrain, better organisation/supplies, or what?

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 10:07

From what I've heard, the approach of the troops to the population was pivotal in how badly Afghanistan went.

Yes definitely. The British were apparently much much better at this than the Americans.

The example you give of the Dutch doesn't surprise me. Again cultural. However the Dutch Army have had a lot of flack over how they handled Srebrenica and the massacre that followed.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchbat

balkaninsight.com/2019/08/08/it-was-hell-dutch-troops-recall-failure-to-stop-srebrenica-deaths/

The battalion have been largely given the blame (poor planning and oversight that led to the situation) whilst veterans say they were powerless to do anything and have been scarred by effectively being able to do nothing but watch.

The feeling is by many that the more laid back attitude of the Dutch embolden the Serbs to do something that they wouldn't have done if the British or Americans had been there as they would have been more likely to challenge and were generally for want of a better word more respected/feared.

Whether thats true, its a classic example of how perceptions of an army are as important as their proven ability and affect decisions.

FOJN · 08/03/2022 10:07

Sorry, I am being thick here, but how does this stop Putin being able to claim NATO involvement by the back door? Poland is supplying planes and are part of NATO?

Given neither Russia or Ukraine can manufacture all their military equipment someone has to supply them, Russia can't stop Ukraine arming itself. If we are clear about supplying equipment only then it's less likely they will accuse us of supplying pilots too. It does also signal to Russia we won't let Ukraine run out of weapons me and military supplies even of we can't get involved in miliary action.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 10:09

@Ijsbear

Question: the flaws in the Russian attack have been quite evident in the north, and there's been some analysis of why to do with equipment and organisation.

The South seems to have been more successful. Is that because of easier terrain, better organisation/supplies, or what?

Pretty much the analysis ive seen.

Better conditions, leadership and planning.

Still looking like its now starting to, at least in part, run into logistics problems not as pronouned as the north (due to there not being mud in the same way)

FacebookPhotos · 08/03/2022 10:10

Is it better if we help their fight through weapons and eg support Poland financially in settling refugees?

It depends if they win. If they succeed in repelling the Russian forces, or are hold out long enough for sanctions to really bite and force Putin into a settlement then I imagine the weapons will be considered absolutely huge. I linked earlier in the thread to a series of tweets by a Kyiv war reporter stating that the local people are really grateful to Johnson particularly.

It isn't just munitions given now, either. It is that the UK sent them early in the year so the Ukrainian army had enough to hold off the Russians for long enough to all the recent supplies to arrive.

DGRossetti · 08/03/2022 10:12

@FOJN

Sorry, I am being thick here, but how does this stop Putin being able to claim NATO involvement by the back door? Poland is supplying planes and are part of NATO?

Given neither Russia or Ukraine can manufacture all their military equipment someone has to supply them, Russia can't stop Ukraine arming itself. If we are clear about supplying equipment only then it's less likely they will accuse us of supplying pilots too. It does also signal to Russia we won't let Ukraine run out of weapons me and military supplies even of we can't get involved in miliary action.

TL;DR is that if Ukraine can still receive and use supplied weapons then then Russians aren't in control. A mirror image of the position the West was in in Afghanistan ...
workisnotawolf · 08/03/2022 10:24

I do think people in Africa starving and their governments having to support food prices and then not being able to afford debt payments to China is relevant in this discussion. Because China and India are very relevant in this war, at least in my opinion.

DGRossetti · 08/03/2022 10:27

@workisnotawolf

I do think people in Africa starving and their governments having to support food prices and then not being able to afford debt payments to China is relevant in this discussion. Because China and India are very relevant in this war, at least in my opinion.
Hence the realisation this is a world war.
Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 10:27

The South seems to have been more successful. Is that because of easier terrain, better organisation/supplies, or what?

Crimea ? The Russians have a huge strategic advantage and the ability to bring in supplies from the sea, plus their Navy can bombard from out at sea with impunity.

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 10:27

Yuri Zastavny(owner Pravda brewery) has switched from brewing to making molotov cocktails... but they're making a special brew called Victory... & they'll drink that beer for Victory.

twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1501141780380667911?s=21

DuncinToffee · 08/03/2022 10:28

@workisnotawolf

I do think people in Africa starving and their governments having to support food prices and then not being able to afford debt payments to China is relevant in this discussion. Because China and India are very relevant in this war, at least in my opinion.
Agreed, the effects will be felt world wide
Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 10:34

The battalion have been largely given the blame (poor planning and oversight that led to the situation) whilst veterans say they were powerless to do anything and have been scarred by effectively being able to do nothing but watch

Yes, they really handled it badly and yes some veterans have been scarred. A soldier I met once, their mate had been in Srebrenicia. Once back in the NL, they were going to be posted into another war zone and they shot themselves to avoid having to go back into another situation like before :(

PestorPeston · 08/03/2022 10:36

@workisnotawolf

I do think people in Africa starving and their governments having to support food prices and then not being able to afford debt payments to China is relevant in this discussion. Because China and India are very relevant in this war, at least in my opinion.
Totally agree. I have seen a fair few posts on these threads saying we grow lots of wheat and buy the rest from Canada, so we won't be affected. Wheat is a global market. Saying "I'm alright Jack" is akin to saying who gives a feck if people on other continents starve. Funnily enough this attitude does not endear the west to other continents. Look at the map of the UN vote and notice the abstentions.
Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 10:39

In the build up to the invasion, I remember watching journalists visiting Ukraine army positions on the frontline in the region of Donbas or luhansk and I am sure they mentioned how heavily mined these areas were, which must be a nightmare for anyone trying to escape.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 10:44

What does the colour grey indicate for those countries on that world map ?

Notonthestairs · 08/03/2022 10:45

Grey = abstention.

Notonthestairs · 08/03/2022 10:52

@Wrongkindofovercoat sorry I realise that wasn't very helpful. The grey represents abstentions in this UN vote

www.reuters.com/world/un-general-assembly-set-censure-russia-over-ukraine-invasion-2022-03-02/

PestorPeston · 08/03/2022 10:55

Source of the map
www.axios.com/united-nations-ukraine-russia-141-55872481-a143-4423-9d3d-80450f01c754.html it is interactive so you can hover over countries.