Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

US and EU are discussing banning Russian oil imports. This will be painful but we aren't going to win this without some self-sacrifice.

@peridito

re withdrawal by Nato from some of the areas that they promised they wouldn't put bases in -

yes danger would be leaving those territories unprotected ,but surely some clever diplomat could come up with wording that withdrawal would be reversed if Russia appeared to be making moves ?

It's easy to adopt a stance where Putin is not to be engaged with but this is what has led us to where we are now .And things aren't black and white ,Putin is not the same thing as Russians .

Mediation works on the principle of hearing both sides and working towards a solution where both sides feel they have gained something .If we adoptia position where Russia must be overcome and crushed we are not only as bad as them but perpetuating the current situation .

Hi, you don’t seem to be getting many answers, probably because this is now thread 9 and this was discussed back in tgreads 1 or 2. Short answer: no way, longer answer includes swear words for Putin (not you).

For a start it’s not just a case of NATO expanding and withdrawing. The countries asked to join, for good reason. They want some security from Russia. They are certainly not going to leave now; more are considering joining.

Secondly, Ukraine is an example of a country that agreed to disarmament, specifically to allay Russia’s concerns. It became the third greatest nuclear power in the world in independence. They gave it up, in return for security guarantees from US, U.K., and Russia. I am not aware of any other states the world that has disarmed, though happy to learn differently (very happy: no one sensible likes nuclear weaponry).

Russia has repaid that trust in the way we see. Do you think anyone else will trust them now? Would you disarm the U.K. right now?

[quote Fallsballs]@Fiefofum I think it was her hairdresser…[/quote]
She's apparently got a stylist who doubles up as a geopolitical analyst while rubbing in the Alberto Balsam; and an MOD friend who doesn't understand the terms of her employment contract.

Quite the circle of acquaintances.

This has been a great series of threads but can I suggest that we don't get personal and if we don't agree with a poster just disagree or don't engage?
Some of the comments recently posted are not helpful and detract from the purpose of the thread.

@holliem91

Can someone help me understand what Russia meant when they yet again pointed at the UK and said they will now be taking "proportionally tough retaliatory measures" in response to the sanctions?

I was doing ok mentally and now I'm terrified again!

Why is it always us he points the finger at?

It isn't, but if you only read uk media you are likely to mainly hear news relevant to the uk

@ScouseQueen

Some of the threads on Twitter about poor Russian logistics, trucks, supplies etc running low have been really interesting. And one of the relevant replies on those points said that if their trucks aren't well maintained and plentiful, how well looked after will their stocks of nuclear missiles be?

I had also wondered this, especially if Russia feels relatively sure that no nuclear-armed country will ever launch a first strike. I know Russia has held genuine concerns that the US might in the past, but Biden has refused to get drawn into any sabre rattling. I'm aware that this is massive wishful thinking 😆 but this conflict has highlighted that Russia doesn't have quite such formidable resources as the rest of the world might have thought.

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove
Her intense ‘stylist’ aka political hairdresser gave me a much needed laugh.
Her ending a response with ‘lol’ was even better.

This is the third or fourth phone call Macron has had with Putin since Russia invaded. I feel quite sorry for him, do you think all the NATO leaders drew lots and Macron had the short straw? 😂

@Papyrus

This is the third or fourth phone call Macron has had with Putin since Russia invaded. I feel quite sorry for him, do you think all the NATO leaders drew lots and Macron had the short straw? 😂

Maybe they hoped they would bore eachother to death over the telephone 😂

France has the EU presidency at the moment, as well as being one of the biggest military powers. I expect that’s why he’s ringing. No offence Malta, but I’m glad it’s him at the moment and not, eg, Malta!

Macron has nuclear weapons and is far less reliant on oil and gas than other European countries (thanks to nuclear power), so is probably a good choice to negotiate with Putin.

Gingerwarthog thank you for saying that. I can’t remember the last time I posted on MN but have lurked and used it since I was pregnant with my eldest DD who is now 17. I have been following this series of threads and find them absolutely fascinating, was up till 1.15 last night catching up!! The type of comments you refer to are distracting and frustrating to encounter here.

@Papyrus

This is the third or fourth phone call Macron has had with Putin since Russia invaded. I feel quite sorry for him, do you think all the NATO leaders drew lots and Macron had the short straw? 😂

Just to repeat what I posted above:

France currently holds the rolling presidency of the EU. This is probably the main reason why Macron is so prominent, nothing to do with NATO.

And it is very much not a short straw for someone who announced a few days ago he is running for re-election in a matter of weeks.

@Papyrus

This is the third or fourth phone call Macron has had with Putin since Russia invaded. I feel quite sorry for him, do you think all the NATO leaders drew lots and Macron had the short straw? 😂

I think France/Macron currently has the presidency of the Council of the EU

I'm a pacifist and my heart goes out to Ukraine, but my husband is Russian and although he would never in a million years have supported this conflict, it is interesting to see what gets into the Western press and what doesn't. Biased reporting and blatant propaganda are by no means one-sided.

France has the EU presidency, Stoltenberg is the NATO president, no need for straws.

Sorry, x-posted with everyone

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Sorry, x-posted with everyone

Me too, it's a fast moving thread

Macron has really gone up in my estimation since this conflict began. He's listened to that lunatic ramble for hours and seems to have tried so hard to find a diplomatic solution to this. I honestly think he's the only Western leader who has a chance of getting through to him.

@Alcemeg

I'm a pacifist and my heart goes out to Ukraine, but my husband is Russian and although he would never in a million years have supported this conflict, it is interesting to see what gets into the Western press and what doesn't. Biased reporting and blatant propaganda are by no means one-sided.

As a pacifist, what would you wish the outcome of the present geopolitical strife to be?

@RankingMyBest

If he does want to show leadership, he could allow those Ukrainians at Calais to board the Eurostar without a visa, for a starter, but no, such a small humanitarian gesture is beyond this Government.

I also agree but on the other hand, wouldn't this be seen as extremely racist and hypocritical if Boris allowed Europeans to be waved through but Syrians and afghans didn't get this support when they needed it?

Plus then would this not set a precedent for any future situations ?

@Alcemeg

I'm a pacifist and my heart goes out to Ukraine, but my husband is Russian and although he would never in a million years have supported this conflict, it is interesting to see what gets into the Western press and what doesn't. Biased reporting and blatant propaganda are by no means one-sided.

What is it that we are missing?

Is there some vital information out there that would mean we all re-evaluate the position that Russian invaded a neighbouring democracy, is killing civilians using cluster bombs and has created the biggest refugee crisis in Europe since WW2?

@AgnesWestern

Does anyone else find it astonishing that so many people on Twitter are calling for a no fly zone and #closetheskies then when questioned about a world war three say it’s a risk they’re willing to take now…seriously?! This is insane logic.

I think it's a mix of folk a) not believing Putin would really go there or that if he did try, he would be stopped first, b) feeling appalled by Ukraine's suffering and unable to ignore their pleas, c) believing Putin needs to be stood up to and not wanting to live in a world subject to a dictator who holds the biggest nuke.

It seems that closing the skies isn't really in anyone's interest (unless that is being said to appease us and our conscience) but if it would help Ukraine and therefore defeat Putin, I have to say I'd understand the decision. I say that as a mother of 5 year old twins.