Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

Just being reported that due to the security situation, the UK ambassador had left Kyiv and the embassy had relocated to Lviv. She has now left the country completely meaning we don't have an embassy in Ukraine (and obviously nowhere to also process visa applications).

I have seen a list of Ukrainian demands of Russia, it's a joke btw.
1 Russia withdraw from all of Ukraine
2 Putin present himself to the international court of justice
3 Free and fair elections in Russia
4 Russia make full reparations to Ukraine
5 Russia make a plan for eventually joint the EU and NATO
6 Russia change their national language to Ukrainian

Erm... well.... it's ambitious!!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60652914
Ukrainians on way to UK hit paperwork dead-end in Calais

Misha has been stuck in Calais for five days, unable to get his family across the Channel, in what would be the last leg of a journey that began on 24 February.

5 DAYS

"No visa for at least another week," he said, simply. "No-one can help us in Calais."

AT LEAST ANOTHER WEEK

And

Eventually, Misha spoke to a Border Force official who advised him to head across town to the old port building.

He has a car and was able to drive there. But when he arrived, the Home Office representation amounted to three men at a table in a deserted departure hall with bags of ready salted crisps and chocolate bars.

When Misha asked them how he could get home to England with his family, he was told he could have an appointment in Paris on 15 March.

Then theres this story about a family WITH valid visas...

5hr ago
Kim Willsher @kimwillsher1
Credit where it's due: a big thank you-merci to @Irish_Ferries for exchanging the ticket of a British citizen and his Ukrainian wife and daughter turned away from Calais on 27/2 by UK Immigration. They obtained their visas today are on their way to UK.

Then an update
The Ukrainian family was so happy to have visas and an exchanged ferry ticket and be on way to UK this afternoon. But they're now being held by immigration officials at Calais and they don't know why. They are distraught. I don't know what to say to them. @ukhomeoffice?

They're being "detained" by border force for "further inquiries". They've been given an IS.81 form and told they're "liable to be detained under Paragraph 16(1) of Schedule 2 of the Immigration Act 1971". Passports and travel documents have been taken. This is just inhumane.

Yakiv says they cannot go anywhere and are now going to miss their ferry. I am hoping @Irish_Ferries will do all they can to get them on a later one if and when British immigration decides to let them travel.

Met this family this morning. Yakiv is a British citizen, his Ukrainian wife and daughter fled the war and have newly issued visas to enter the UK. I saw the visas. They are now in immigration detention at Calais for the second time in 8 days. What more do they have to do?

The family has been released. They are now on the ferry for Dover. What an ordeal...

Thank you to my colleagues in London who raised this with the @ukhomeoffice. This is just ONE family. There are thousands fleeing the war in Ukraine.

@RedToothBrush

Then theres this story about a family WITH valid visas...

5hr ago
Kim Willsher @kimwillsher1
Credit where it's due: a big thank you-merci to @Irish_Ferries for exchanging the ticket of a British citizen and his Ukrainian wife and daughter turned away from Calais on 27/2 by UK Immigration. They obtained their visas today are on their way to UK.

Then an update
The Ukrainian family was so happy to have visas and an exchanged ferry ticket and be on way to UK this afternoon. But they're now being held by immigration officials at Calais and they don't know why. They are distraught. I don't know what to say to them. @ukhomeoffice?

They're being "detained" by border force for "further inquiries". They've been given an IS.81 form and told they're "liable to be detained under Paragraph 16(1) of Schedule 2 of the Immigration Act 1971". Passports and travel documents have been taken. This is just inhumane.

Yakiv says they cannot go anywhere and are now going to miss their ferry. I am hoping @Irish_Ferries will do all they can to get them on a later one if and when British immigration decides to let them travel.

Met this family this morning. Yakiv is a British citizen, his Ukrainian wife and daughter fled the war and have newly issued visas to enter the UK. I saw the visas. They are now in immigration detention at Calais for the second time in 8 days. What more do they have to do?

The family has been released. They are now on the ferry for Dover. What an ordeal...

Thank you to my colleagues in London who raised this with the @ukhomeoffice. This is just ONE family. There are thousands fleeing the war in Ukraine.

I can only guess their must be other issues e.g. Security related maybe ?

Ukrainians on way to UK hit paperwork dead-end in Calais

Here

Another Update.

There is no visa application centre in Calais. Nor are there plans to open one either.

Matt Dathan @matt_dathan
Home Office says it's opening an extra visa application centre for Ukrainian refugees "en route" to Calais but won't say where or when it'll open.

It won't open one in Calais because of fears it would create a "pull factor".

Currently no appointments in Brussels or Paris VACs

Obviously the head of the Home Office doesn't know her arse from her elbow, nor what any of her staff are actually doing.

Hawkins That's not the case with the story I linked above.

Mum and two children walked 45 miles to reach her husband.

3rd night in a hotel in Calais

@dogfishman

We are in agreement that the pledge was not to increase nuclear weapons and I'm not clear why you keep highlighting this aspect .

Perhaps we are disagreeing over semantics ? Yes it was accepted that more countries would join Nato . In my book this is not the same thing as Nato adding bases and increasing military power .

As I've pointed out Nato say that they have established 4 additional
battlegroups or "enhanced forward presence which became fully operational in 2017 .

I don't see how this is in line with the Founding Agreement which says
NATO and Russia believe that an important goal of CFE Treaty adaptation should be a significant lowering in the total amount of Treaty-Limited Equipment

NATO and Russia encourage all States Parties to the CFE Treaty to consider reductions in their CFE equipment entitlements, as part of an overall effort to achieve lower equipment levels .

We will need to agree to disagree I think .

@AgnesWestern

I think there will be pressure on Zelensky to accept.

I think rightly so. He needs to accept.

It may not be the outcome he wants but it may very well stop this war now and that’s what everyone needs.

He will be able to walk away as a hero though nobody will forget his courage and sometimes being the one to back down and give in doesn’t mean losing

Zelensky's twitter 1 hour ago:

In constant contact with friends. Told @GitanasNauseda about the current military and humanitarian situation in Ukraine. We also agreed on the next steps for Ukraine's accession to the #EU. We feel the support of Lithuania.

He isn't going to accept that Putin can control what international agreements Ukraine signs up to. And I don't blame him tbh. The whole point of the resistance is that Ukraine is determined to remain an independent country.

In a slightly Father Ted development, a lorry driver in Dublin has deliberately rammed a lorry full of ecclesiastical supplies through the gates of the Russian embassy there. The Russians are complaining that the gardaí didn't protect them.

I think rightly so. He needs to accept.

Im going to repeat this again.

The latest Russian 'offer' was exactly the same as the last one.

It expects Ukraine to surrender its sovereignty and install a PM.

Democracies elect PMs. They do not install them

I also said that this offer was little more than packaging the same Russian demands that Putin made over the weekend (complete surrender of sovereignty) but it was being packaged for a western audience too stupid to understand what sovereignty and democracy actually are.

I think my point has been proven.

There will not be any pressure from Western governments on Ukraine to surrender sovereignty and become Russian. Mainly because that completely fucking undermines their core principles of democracy and why they are supporting Ukraine at all in the first place!

I really think anyone saying that Zelensky should accept this 'offer' should understand what the hell the Ukrainians are fighting for and what democracy actually because clearly they don't have a fucking clue right now.

I swear to god.

I think those comments are in close competition for todays most utterly clueless.

And thats on a day with priti patel and james cleverly trying very hard.

Ukraine is not going to accept while Russia is fucking up all over the place and its economic situation is getting more dire.

If Russia takes Odessa and there is street to street fighting in Kyiv, then maybe.

@RedToothBrush

I think rightly so. He needs to accept.

Im going to repeat this again.

The latest Russian 'offer' was exactly the same as the last one.

It expects Ukraine to surrender its sovereignty and install a PM.

Democracies elect PMs. They do not install them

I also said that this offer was little more than packaging the same Russian demands that Putin made over the weekend (complete surrender of sovereignty) but it was being packaged for a western audience too stupid to understand what sovereignty and democracy actually are.

I think my point has been proven.

There will not be any pressure from Western governments on Ukraine to surrender sovereignty and become Russian. Mainly because that completely fucking undermines their core principles of democracy and why they are supporting Ukraine at all in the first place!

I really think anyone saying that Zelensky should accept this 'offer' should understand what the hell the Ukrainians are fighting for and what democracy actually because clearly they don't have a fucking clue right now.

100% agree with this. I hope they say no.

Well I’ve been reading through all these threads, utterly horrified just like everyone else. @RedToothBrush your posts have been particularly brilliant, thank you! But I have ended up thinking, surely we can’t really just let the bastard get away with it? We pretty much left Hitler to increase his strength before we eventually realised he would not stop, and look where that got us. We have enough information about Putin to know what his agenda really is; are we just going to let him carry on until he ‘reunites the empire’?
He’s the bully with the gun aimed at us, laughing while he beats up and tortures the little kids.
I know his sort; he’ll threaten the worst but if it really came to it he wouldn’t have the balls. He and his lackeys would know we’d raze Red Square before he could lift his finger off the button.
And for us to really think that Ukraine can accept any ‘demands’ from Russia and it will all be ok…
We have to do more.

@RedToothBrush

I swear to god.

I think those comments are in close competition for todays most utterly clueless.

I share your frustration RTB. It's difficult to read comments on how a sovereign people should give up their independence and democracy and give in to a rancid bully trying to bomb Ukraine into submission.

Where does install a PM get demanded?

I missed this part

Put this another way so those hard of thinking can understand better.

We pretend for a second that Ukraine is the UK
Russia has just said we can keep the Queen but they will choose our PM for us

And we have posters saying the Queen should accept this and would be hailed as heroic for doing so.

mutters some more about what people know about democracy in this country

I think thats pretty up there in 'special terms'.

@RedToothBrush you’re quite rude aren’t you ?

I understand the situation perfectly

Sadly though I think there comes a time where someone has to back down for the greater good

I think that was in a separate post @MarshaBradyo : Zelenskyy possibly gets "allowed" to continue as a figurehead president while Yuriy Boyko is installed as a pro Russian prime minister. To illustrate how popular he is, he got a whole 11.67% of the vote in the last (democratic ) elections

@prettybird

I think that was in a separate post *@MarshaBradyo* : Zelenskyy possibly gets "allowed" to continue as a figurehead president while Yuriy Boyko is installed as a pro Russian prime minister. To illustrate how popular he is, he got a whole 11.67% of the vote in the last (democratic ) elections

Ah I see thanks Prettybird

I think pp may have missed this, I genuinely did!

Would you say that to your child @ThirtyAndfeelingFifty if they were being beaten up by the school bully? Just give him what he wants? And of course the bully will never ask for anything ever again