Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

RTB Cleverly was basically saying

'Well, he doesn’t go to Lords and doesn’t speak in the Lords so it doesn’t really matter he’s a Lord'

And his defence of the 50 visas was utterly despicable

The problem with the British government is that they just aren't as clever as they think they are. They have no ability to plan anything. They only react to whatever is currently being thrown at them. A competent government would have contingency plans for all sorts of issues, which kick in when needed.

I'm in Sweden and the difference is quite astounding. Front page on my municipalities website is information on their contingency plans. What they're doing, what we need to do, where to get further information, what to do if this happens or that happens, what the various alarms means and do you have the app if you live somewhere without actual sirens. And so on. All of this is normal contingency planning, they're not starting from scratch, they're just moving it to the front page.

@PeeAche

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned this morning so far but, "temporary holding facilities" for Ukrainians that leave Ukraine via one of these "humanitarian corridors" into Bela or Russia, sound a lot like the makings of a concentration camp. They've been assured they will be provided with onward travel from these facilities, but I just know they will not.

I would not take one of those routes. My heart breaks for the people that are desperate enough to do so. Many Ukrainians have family over the boarder in Russia and may decide it's worth doing. But he can never release them into general society, because they know the truth about the war. 😢

It is horrific.

This article from Nikolai Kuleba, the ombudsman for children in Ukraine is heartbreaking.

Every day Ukrainians beg me to save their children. Violence and terror are raining down on them
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/07/ukrainian-children-violence-terror-military

@Roussette

The rouble against the $ has gone over a cliff.

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1500734160264175619

and... the spirit of the Ukrainians, picture in the tweet of the road sign, from a verified Guardian reporter

twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1500735087398240256?s=20&t=CScjbfh3vtNVfveC01L8sQ

Road sign in Odessa

Straight on: fuck off
Left: fuck off again
Right: fuck off to Russia

I saw a new sign where all directions pointed to The Hague.

@DuncinToffee

RTB Cleverly was basically saying

'Well, he doesn’t go to Lords and doesn’t speak in the Lords so it doesn’t really matter he’s a Lord'

And his defence of the 50 visas was utterly despicable

Right then.

Make everyone a Lord. Cos it doesn't really matter.

British refugee policy has been shameful for many years.

I lived in Berlin during the Syrian refugee crisis. Berlin alone took in 50,000 Syrian refugees over the course of a year, while the UK took in a few thousand and dithered about establishing a new resettlement scheme (like they're doing now!) Even now the UK as a whole has accepted fewer Syrian refugees than the city of Berlin.

@Whattochoosenow

The methods are ingenious but for some reason the BBC considers the methods divisive

I’m not sure it’s that divisive, certainly given the belief in, the perhaps justified ) grumbling about the Russian Forces, “rules of war” and Russian attacks on certain installations I think the worries expressed in the piece such as that I’ve C&P’d below are fair enough.

"It's really important to be careful in this realm," says Suzanne Spalding from the Centre for Strategic and International Studies. "If we get into destructive attacks on critical infrastructure being carried out by citizens I think we begin to run into the kinds of fog-of-war, misattribution, potential cascading impacts that weren't anticipated. We might see retaliation from one side for something a citizen has done and things can escalate fast."

aren’t

I know a lot of people have been asking questions about international law and war crimes, so I thought I'd share this blog post that lists a lot of great articles and resources on these questions:

blogs.city.ac.uk/citylawforum/2022/03/02/russian-invasion-of-ukraine-legal-developments-and-sources/

@MarshaBradyo

I agree with being faster, particularly with the sponsorship programme. I’m sure there are many ready to help here too

This is what's frustrating. There's a long established Ukrainian community in many parts of the UK. We have such a community in my town and they've been central in local fundraising and support. I'm absolutely certain these communities are ready, willing and able to support refugees to settle here with additional support from the wider community. If only the government could make some sensible and compassionate decisions.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams

The problem with the British government is that they just aren't as clever as they think they are. They have no ability to plan anything. They only react to whatever is currently being thrown at them. A competent government would have contingency plans for all sorts of issues, which kick in when needed.

I'm in Sweden and the difference is quite astounding. Front page on my municipalities website is information on their contingency plans. What they're doing, what we need to do, where to get further information, what to do if this happens or that happens, what the various alarms means and do you have the app if you live somewhere without actual sirens. And so on. All of this is normal contingency planning, they're not starting from scratch, they're just moving it to the front page.

Contigency plans. How THICK do you have to be, to not work out that with refugees moving across Europe that setting up a team in Calais would be a basic plan that you could manage within ten days?

Its not about competence. Its about a lack of political willingness.

You shift political will by public opinion. We all have a responsibility to focus that rage today.

I'm not a fan of emailing MPs as a rule. I think it a waste of time.

It might well be for this. But its the very least we can do and it focuses utter rage. Make it clear that James Cleverly was an abomination today.

I was wondering does anyone know what happens to any of the zoo animals left in Ukraine? I'm assuming that they are euthanised? A question my youngest dd asked me this weekend.

@TheSillyMastiff

Absolutely absurd that the humanitarian corridors will go to Belarus and Russia!!!

He's done this knowing nobody will travel and then when he slaughters civilians he can say "well I gave them an option to leave!"

How cruel to tease people fleeing a war zone with an escape route he knows they won't take! I mean that's a whole new level of psychological warfare!

I've managed to not get emotive or too angry, but this, this has angered me to a new level!

This made me really angry too. I did wonder if he wanted them to go to Russia because it feeds his narrative of rescuing the Ukrainians from their 'nazified' government. But if they do go to Russia, surely they would tell everyone what is really going on? So they'd have to be hidden away somehow. It's just awful and such a nasty ploy, whatever the reason.

@Natsku

If Russia disconnects from the global internet then I guess Anonymous won't be able to do anything more to them :(

On a light hearted note, its the first Monday of the month which means public warning test day, and they've had to remind everyone on the radio and in the newspapers that its just a test today, and not to panic and think its an actual attack (it sounds like an air raid siren). I can just imagine the Finnish version of mumsnet around midday today "AIBU to worry this isn't a test and its the real thing?"

Anonymous "members" in Russia could still potentially access it though, couldn't they?

@dogfishman I've already posted NATO said they would not placing nuclear weapons and that is no doubt true
My concern was that Nato have ,by their own admission expanded their scope
in 2016, we deployed four multinational battlegroups ─ or "enhanced forward presence" ─ to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. In 2017, the battlegroups became fully operational. More than 4,500 troops from Europe and North America work closely together with home defence forces
www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm
The Founding Agreement says
the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces

Nato says
the bases are not permanent but rotational, defensive and well below any reasonable definition of "substantial combat forces .These are the 4 fully operational bases mentioned above .

You say NATO never told Russia it wouldn't expand eastward Russia explicitly agreed to that expansion in 1997 but I don't see that in the Founding Act .

I see talk of reductions
NATO and Russia believe that an important goal of CFE Treaty adaptation should be a significant lowering in the total amount of Treaty-Limited Equipment permitted in the Treaty's area of application compatible with the legitimate defence requirements of each State Party. NATO and Russia encourage all States Parties to the CFE Treaty to consider reductions in their CFE equipment entitlements, as part of an overall effort to achieve lower equipment levels that are consistent with the transformation of Europe's security environment.

In addition, in the negotiations on the adaptation of the CFE Treaty, the member States of NATO and Russia will, together with other States Parties, seek to strengthen stability by further developing measures to prevent any potentially threatening build-up of conventional forces in agreed regions of Europe, to include Central and Eastern Europe.

but as this below from the Founding Act shows ,it's all just words,
a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more

Consistent with the tenets of the Permanent Joint Council, this enhanced military-to-military dialogue will be built upon the principle that neither party views the other as a threat nor seeks to disadvantage the other's security

We have a British government who have spent the last 5 years trying to demonise refugees and shoot ourselves in the foot with a departure from the EU and wasting the efforts of thousands of civil servants trying to polish the Brexit turd in the middle of a pandemic and elected a PM who may be compromised by foreign powers who surrounds himself with a cabinet of second rate incompetents.

And here we are with the Ukrainians begging to join the EU and the EU opening their doors and hearts to the humanitarian catastrophe being rained down upon them.

It's not just the Russian Army that is a Potemkin village it's our goverment as well. If you're not listening to James O'Brien on LBC you really should !

This made me really angry too. I did wonder if he wanted them to go to Russia because it feeds his narrative of rescuing the Ukrainians from their 'nazified' government. But if they do go to Russia, surely they would tell everyone what is really going on? So they'd have to be hidden away somehow. It's just awful and such a nasty ploy, whatever the reason.

I have a horrible feeling they will be held in camps and used as bargaining chips.

Is it true that Ukraine have had a military operation attacking Donetsk and other largely Russian areas in Ukraine since 2014? And made it illegal to speak Russian?

Is this what this is about? And if so, was it not reported widely?

Any particular reason why other countries can seize Russian oligarchs assets but this country want to give 18 months notice to sell up and move money (possibly reduced to 28 days notice later if Labour get their way).

Is London really the capital for dirty money?

All Cleverly did was point out what a crock the whole House of Lords thing is. Not that he realised it, being a bit dim

@Ponchek

Is it true that Ukraine have had a military operation attacking Donetsk and other largely Russian areas in Ukraine since 2014? And made it illegal to speak Russian?

Is this what this is about? And if so, was it not reported widely?

That's Putin's fake news.

@UKRAINEwearewithyou Part of the City of London's USP is bring me your dirty money and we will wash it clean and pump it through our world-beating financial system. That and we have an honest and stable political system that respects property rights (or we did) and a ruling party awash with millions of financial donations from oligarch's money as an insurance policy. The Tories don't want to shatter that perception and are on the back foot now against domestic and global opinion. Money doesn't talk it SHOUTS !

@Ponchek

Is it true that Ukraine have had a military operation attacking Donetsk and other largely Russian areas in Ukraine since 2014? And made it illegal to speak Russian?

Is this what this is about? And if so, was it not reported widely?

Forgot to say, The Ukrainian president is a Russian speaker himself.

I was wondering does anyone know what happens to any of the zoo animals left in Ukraine?

I read on twitter that they had been evacuated to Poland. I can't remember who posted it, but I'll have a look. There were also lots of photos of artworks being stored in the same bunkers used during WWII.

Practical problem involving Brexit which is highly relevant now:

Gavin Barwell @GavinBarwell
One of the lessons is that the UK and the EU face a common threat and that the Brexit deal should have included arrangements to work together on foreign and defence policy. Remind me who blocked that???

This remains an unresolved area. We haven't got these arrangements in place now - when we need them.

This isn't an anti-Brexit gripe. Its a full on actual practical problem now.

Mujtaba (Mij) Rahman@Mij_Europe
Senior French official “If UK was still in EU, e/thing we wd have done wd have been co-ordinated with UK first, then Germany. Positive this is how we wd have done it. UK wd have been totally in the lead in EU. Now UK is totally irrelevant to EU disc. Are they influential in US? Who knows”

“The UK keeps asking for co-ordination meetings to give the impression they are leading, but they are not. We are missing the strategic discussions with the UK. We can't do it with Germany. It's our biggest crisis ever and we really miss the UK angle.”

It really hasn't been lost on me that the UK government do NOT appear to have had ANY high profile meeting set up with either Macron or Scholz. Instead we've bitched about Macron being too friendly with Putin.

Instead we have meetings arranged with the Canadian PM, Dutch PM and representatives of Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia governments this week.

Thats it. Not even the PMs of four of those.

We have a 6 point plan to tell everyone else how to suck eggs and appear like we are doing something. When we can't even get a single Foreign Office Team to fucking Calais. Nor publish our OWN plan for sponsoring refugees.

Instead we have Ministers on TV saying how much we are doing (FUCK ALL) and defending relationships with Russians against M16 advice cos they 'were nice to hang out with'.

Literally the only thing we are capable of organising is an illegal piss up at No10.