Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

Absolutely absurd that the humanitarian corridors will go to Belarus and Russia!!!

He's done this knowing nobody will travel and then when he slaughters civilians he can say "well I gave them an option to leave!"

How cruel to tease people fleeing a war zone with an escape route he knows they won't take! I mean that's a whole new level of psychological warfare!

I've managed to not get emotive or too angry, but this, this has angered me to a new level!

[quote Wrongkindofovercoat]@Cam77 I think the media has always portrayed the horror of war, I have certainly seen images on MSN of all the conflicts over the years regardless of the skin colour of the people involved. How close we as a country geographically to those conflicts, seems to have as much bearing on how people respond as any other reason. Been alive for a while though, so maybe I remember more conflicts than others ?[/quote]
Agreed.

Certainly “the media”, in the form of war reporters and latterly photographers have been trying to portray the horror of war since at least the Charge of the Light Brigade through WW1, WW2 Vietnam and Biafra through to where we are today.

What has changed is the methods of distribution. It still takes a bit of effort to find some grim images from, say, the Spanish Civil War, but they do exist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_correspondent

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Miller

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Capa

@botharna

France 24 DW.com Euro news RTÉ

All reputable EU based sites offering high quality news in English for those posters saying they are stuck on BBC.

Interesting. I looked at those this morning to compare to the BBC. All are reporting about the proposed humanitarian corridors. The BBC led upfront with the fact the corridors are to Russia. Euro news and DW made that clear in the text. France 24 didn’t mention that point, but did mention the corridors we at the request of Macron.

I will continue to check a number of websites and I agree it is very important to do so.

I can’t find info yet about the sponsorship visa requirements- if anyone finds any info can they post it here please?

2. Russian military. The Kremlin spent the last 20 years trying to modernize its military. Much of that budget was stolen and spent on mega-yachts in Cyprus. But as a military advisor you cannot report that to the President. So they reported lies to him instead

Ive been wondering about russian military spending. Russia reportedly spends billions on this, but the evidence we have seen so far is much of their traditional warfare kit is old, unsuitable and lacked maintenance. While ration packs were 7 years out of date.

@notimagain when I was in primary school our teacher brought in official war photography books from WWII , he said he had to remove some of the pages as they were too distressing, what he left in was bad enough. I think a couple of the parents complained, I remember being very upset by the images of the blown apart horses.

@PronounssheRa I keep getting this mental image of the vast military parades in Russia and imaginaing that all the tanks etc have to skirt round the back of the Kremlin and join the back of the parade, so it looks like there is more than there is, in an Ealing comedy style.

@Iknowitisheresomewhere

I can’t find info yet about the sponsorship visa requirements- if anyone finds any info can they post it here please?

I don't think there's any detail yet but keep an eye on the Home Office website. This is the latest info I could find: www.gov.uk/government/news/further-support-for-ukrainians-fleeing-russia-invasion

Actually they say it will be from this department: www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-levelling-up-housing-and-communities but nothing so far

The humanitarian corridors go to Russia?? What will happen to the refugees once they’re there? That’s if they ever get there and aren’t shot at on the way.

Oh, I know you’re all right of course. It just feels like Putin can get away with whatever he wants and we’re all essentially helpless.

The oligarch's bungs to the Tories must mean favours are being called in as they get to divest assets in time to protect their wealth.

Vile

It is horrific that the humanitarian corridors will go to Russia or Belarus. Putin is a monster.

I must confess though, I was surprised that countries are even allowed to seize things like super yachts and mansions etc from individuals that they have bought and legally own. Is it legal for governments to do that? Is there some sort of law that says when we’re in a situation like this one, normal rules go out the window? How does it work?

Governments usually have the powers to seize goods bought with the proceeds of crime. About time the law caught up with those stripping Russia of its wealth.

@changeyourname11111

The humanitarian corridors go to Russia?? What will happen to the refugees once they’re there? That’s if they ever get there and aren’t shot at on the way.

The idea that anyone will feel safe walking towards an attacking army thats failed to keep two previous ceasefires is one only for Russian State TV.

Interesting. I looked at those this morning to compare to the BBC. All are reporting about the proposed humanitarian corridors. The BBC led upfront with the fact the corridors are to Russia. Euro news and DW made that clear in the text. France 24 didn’t mention that point, but did mention the corridors we at the request of Macron.

According to BBC live blog, Macron 'did not ask for corridors to Russia'

More now on the reports of evacuation routes heading to Russia and Belarus. French President Emmanuel Macron denies requesting for those corridors to lead into Russia, French news outlet BFMTV reports.

"The president of the Republic has neither requested nor obtained corridors to Russia after his conversation with Vladimir Putin," the Elysee presidential palace told BFMTV.

"The president of the Republic insistently asks to let the civilian populations leave and to allow the transport of aid.

"It's another way for Putin to push his narrative and say that it is the Ukrainians who are the aggressors and they are the ones who offer asylum to everyone."

China are sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine which has to be seen as a positive. Part of me feels they hold the key to ending this conflict.

I prey the peace qtalks yeild something today but with neither side budging I just don't see how it can. With the dragging pn though hopefully some concessions can be made.

@bluewanda I posted this on another thread.

Sanctions are a much used tool of international law. Unilateral sanctions are perfectly lawful in the UK under the Sanctions Act.
www.gov.uk/government/collections/uk-sanctions-regimes-under-the-sanctions-act#:~:text=This%20includes%20regimes%20under%20the,a%20particular%20set%20of%20purposes.

The Article 1 Protocol 1 ECHR right to property is not an absolute right and can be balanced against other rights, particularly those which are absolute. It must pursue a legitimate aim (e.g. national security or the protection of the rights of others) and must be proportionate - which is why the sanctions are targeted specially at those connected with or funding Putin/the regime. Every sanction issued will be fully legally vetted beforehand.

Property rights cannot be absolute or you could have taxation, penalties or fines etc. Authorities can and do seize things in other contexts - e.g. the vehicles of tobacco or drug smugglers, proceeds of crime, the properties of people who evade tax etc - but these are using clearly defined powers in legislation and subject to court oversight.

Does anyone have an update about the Indian students trapped in Sumy?

Examples of absolute rights include, in particular, the right to life and the right not to be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

I think it could have the opposite effect. He's told Russians that those in Ukraine want to be part of Russia, I think he's hoping to be able to show people arriving so that he can say he was right. There will be no mention of the fact that it is the only escape route.

If nobody uses it then it's a fail for Putin. Hopefully plans have been put in place for a route out in the other direction. What a choice for these brave people.

@peridito:
You can read the Russia-NATO founding Act here: www.nato.int/cps/su/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm
signed in 1997.
Russia (Yeltsin) and the NATO heads of state signed it. It foresaw that there would be new NATO members, but also that "The member States of NATO reiterate that they have no intention, no plan and no reason to deploy nuclear weapons on the territory of new members". Which they haven't.
In later years Russia periodically expressed concern about new NATO accessions, but other European countries were keen to join in order to strengthen their own security, and today you can see why. However Russia does seem to have a genuine level of paranoia that NATO threatens it.
NATO kept only small conventional forces stationed near Russia until after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. It expanded them after that, but still not to a level anywhere near being able to attack Russia.

The corridors lead to Russia? Wtf?! That's going to feel like a 'from the frying pan into the fire' kind of situation for the people trying to escape.

The Elysée Palace has apparently denied that Macron asked for the humanitarian corridors into Russia and Byelarus. He asked for humanitarian corridors - but to where the refugees wanted to go (ie not into the occupiers' territory)