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Ukraine and Russia: Answering common questions and issues

990 replies

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 05/03/2022 12:29

Hi, I am starting this thread due to the amount of misinformation and speculation I have seen on the boards around what is happening with Russia's war on Ukraine.

While I am by no means a leading specialist, I have a master's degree focusing on the defence and economics aspect of international relations, I work today in politics and have a lot of links in the area. Anything I can't answer I can at least point you to the people who can-- I naturally follow this incredibly closely.

I thought it might be helpful if myself and others with specific knowledge in this area could help to answer any questions you have, on anything from the war, to sanctions, to Russia's actions, to the fallout.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 20:49

Good night, how so, I've never read it

goodnightgrumble · 08/03/2022 20:54

@Tigersonvaseline

Good night, how so, I've never read it
The book was a parable about how ordinary people such as the Russians are led into a revolution based on lies. They overthrew a 'government' to replace it with a their own version. Have a google!
SuperSocks · 08/03/2022 21:02

@Tigersonvaseline You could have a loo on YouTube for an audible version, and listen while getting on with house chores or whatever. It's interesting, but very depressing!

Aristalese · 08/03/2022 21:26

If you want to understand Russia better, once you're familiar with its history, you could move onto literature. With that in mind, I highly recommend Dostoyevski to begin with. I can recommend many more Russian novelists if you're into it. Reading them will need context so that you recognise the symbolism and are able to read between the lines.

Also, closer to you, Soviet occupation post WW2 is not far off George Orwell's 1984.

FOJN · 08/03/2022 21:52

Link to free audio version of Animal Farm on Youtube, it's read by Stephen Fry.

Hawkins001 · 08/03/2022 21:57

This is not my comment or analysis but one I thought may intrigue some readers here who can better analysis it.

"I fully support Ukraine's fight against Russian invasion, sanctions, etc. I'm truly curious how this is intended to work. Does cutting off Russians feeding Russians somehow help? I get targeting and boycotting their economy to coerce and hurt their military advance, and then the Russians in their Govt. But if McDonalds (or Western corporations) aren't providing the resources and trade and it's self sufficient, and it impacts the Russians working and eating there, how does this impact the Russian invasion, unless it's just one more (small) way to our pressure on Russians to push against their govt. The cutting off of food also reminded me of the Berlin Airlift, where the West had to airdrop countless tons of food to starving people stuck on the Communist/Socialist side of the wall, none of their own fault. Is that where we're headed with this too? We planning to try to cut off enough critical resources and starve the Russian people in hopes it forces Putin into retreat? Again, I'm not fully understanding the impact of this move when it's Russian people working and feeding Russian people, not the govt or military, so if it's just a politically savvy gesturez then call it so, because it doesn't seem to do anything to hurt their economy or resources if their McDs are all self sustained with locally sourced supplies.

From a 2019 article:
"With tensions building between the U.S and Russia, Russia placed a mandate on McDonald’s to use local distributors for their menu items. Since 2018, McDonald’s has been using locally sourced products for 98% of items. They began using Russian-grown potatoes and a Russian factory is used to produce the original McDonald’s french fry, along with Country Style Potatoes for all Russian franchises."

www.thetravel.com/best-mcdonalds-food-russia/ "

Aristalese · 08/03/2022 21:59

PepsiCo and Coca-Cola are out too. Finally!

KFC and Burger King left.

Mikey555 · 08/03/2022 22:00

Thank you so much for this thread OP.

I have found this an amazing read. I have a bit of a stupid question and do not want to derail.

I don't want to seem as if this is ignoring the catastrophic humanitarian crisis. However, financially (especially as Germany will see major economic problems) do you think the Uk will fair better or worse having left the EU?

Sorry if this offends anyone

Purplecatlover · 08/03/2022 22:09

Re the planes, how does Poland shipping them to Germany for disposal by the us help get them to the Ukrainians? I get that now the USA is free to give them to whoever they want but I don’t get why plans can’t just do that?

Re occupation being better, no it’s not! Even from the towns closest to Russia people are fleeing to the west, not to Russia. Ask yourself why they would choose to travel hundreds of miles to safety through bombing and being shift at rather than less than a hundred miles to Russia? Go and watch tonight’s c4 news on catch up, just the first ten minutes, if that’s not enough go on Twitter and listen to the refugees, listen to what the people are saying.

Gladioli23 · 08/03/2022 22:17

@Hawkins001

This is not my comment or analysis but one I thought may intrigue some readers here who can better analysis it.

"I fully support Ukraine's fight against Russian invasion, sanctions, etc. I'm truly curious how this is intended to work. Does cutting off Russians feeding Russians somehow help? I get targeting and boycotting their economy to coerce and hurt their military advance, and then the Russians in their Govt. But if McDonalds (or Western corporations) aren't providing the resources and trade and it's self sufficient, and it impacts the Russians working and eating there, how does this impact the Russian invasion, unless it's just one more (small) way to our pressure on Russians to push against their govt. The cutting off of food also reminded me of the Berlin Airlift, where the West had to airdrop countless tons of food to starving people stuck on the Communist/Socialist side of the wall, none of their own fault. Is that where we're headed with this too? We planning to try to cut off enough critical resources and starve the Russian people in hopes it forces Putin into retreat? Again, I'm not fully understanding the impact of this move when it's Russian people working and feeding Russian people, not the govt or military, so if it's just a politically savvy gesturez then call it so, because it doesn't seem to do anything to hurt their economy or resources if their McDs are all self sustained with locally sourced supplies.

From a 2019 article:
"With tensions building between the U.S and Russia, Russia placed a mandate on McDonald’s to use local distributors for their menu items. Since 2018, McDonald’s has been using locally sourced products for 98% of items. They began using Russian-grown potatoes and a Russian factory is used to produce the original McDonald’s french fry, along with Country Style Potatoes for all Russian franchises."

www.thetravel.com/best-mcdonalds-food-russia/ "

My understanding is that sanctions work in multiple ways: 1. Decrease tax revenue to reduce funding for the war 2. Cause discomfort for Russian citizens and therefore the Russian government and 3. Reduce supplies of goods which physically support the war effort (e.g. microchips).

I don't really think that McDonalds choosing not to open is any kind of attempt to starve Russia into submission and unless I've missed it the government imposed sanctions are on things like microchips, money held externally etc. Companies are being pressured into pulling out of Russia but no government has mandated McDonald's can't sell there - they've just calculated it's now more damaging to their business to stay open than to close.

It's also worth noting that the Soviet Union cut off supplies to West Berlin, which sat within East Germany and wasn't conducting a war with anyone. West Berlin had recently had the Deutschmark introduced I believe - to try and combat inflation but this was done without Russian agreement (though I think did not technically apply to East Germany) so I don't think the comparison is fair tbh.

Ponchek · 08/03/2022 22:25

Please. Shutting McDonalds, KFC and Burger King is starving the Russian population?

Why even write such nonsense?

What closing those outlets does is to make the people feel embarrassed, rejected, and angry. Hopefully angry with their leadership.

Hawkins001 · 08/03/2022 22:31

@Gladioli23
Much appreciated for your perspectives. Helps me learn more when I know the source materials are out of my understanding for a more in-depth analysis.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 22:38

Re Germany, this is one of my big concerns.

The EU's beating heart is : Germany.

The economic power house. It's why I was raising concerns earlier about being cut off from Russia's gas.
Apparently it's army is in a dreadful run down state but I imagine in this situation it could mobilise quite quickly ?
And it's better for everyone if it can.
But how can it,if it's starved of petrol?
If Germany suffers like this the whole EU is at Risk.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 22:40

Maybe it Will wean the Russians off the foul stuff.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 22:43

Apparently we don't even need to go as far as cutting off gas use, we just need to stop - re supply-. Of parts.
So they can't repair things. They rely on so much that wouldn't be hard.
A Biggie would be Taiwan and their micro chip but not sure what Taiwan has done

Mikey555 · 08/03/2022 22:44

@Tigersonvaseline this is my worry. Do you think the UK will be better off now they have left?
Don't want to turn this into a Brexit debate but was just wondering about the economic effects in the EU

workisnotawolf · 08/03/2022 22:45

MacDonalds is actually really popular in Russia so don’t underestimate the effect on the ordinary Russian:
www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-in-russia-versus-united-states-photos-menu-2019-7?amp
In the 1990s, many Russians would go on dates to MacDonalds and queue.

The cynic in me says though what would stop the Russian government continuing those restaurants though even if the foreign corporation supposedly closes the restaurants. Surely Russian staff will have keys and can get some supplies in.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 22:45

Mikey I honestly don't think it's a worry right now and the answer will always come down to what you personally feel.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 22:49

@Aristalese

I've not forayed far into Russian authors but I really enjoyed the fairly recent BBC dramatisation of war and peace.

I've read one day in the life of...

But I have read quite a lot of literature around China.

Life and death in Shanghai.

Wow.

Also an extremely intimate portrait of chairman Mao by his private doctor.
Extraordinary.

And a few others.

Woollystockings · 08/03/2022 22:53

Apparently it's army is in a dreadful run down state but I imagine in this situation it could mobilise quite quickly ?

What do you mean by this about Germany? What do you expect the German military to do? They have a lot of legal restraints on what they’re allowed to do compared to most countries.

Tigersonvaseline · 08/03/2022 23:00

Woolly.

I mean Germany is excellent at things, let's say some hair triggered NATO involvement in the war.

Surely Germany compared to say Spain or Romania is going to be better and faster at turning it's hand to the war effort and producing military equipment.
We,the west would need them.
But what can they do if they literally have no petrol.
Confused people can't even get to work to make whatever? That can't fly or move because of no petrol

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 08/03/2022 23:26

@Hawkins001

This is not my comment or analysis but one I thought may intrigue some readers here who can better analysis it.

"I fully support Ukraine's fight against Russian invasion, sanctions, etc. I'm truly curious how this is intended to work. Does cutting off Russians feeding Russians somehow help? I get targeting and boycotting their economy to coerce and hurt their military advance, and then the Russians in their Govt. But if McDonalds (or Western corporations) aren't providing the resources and trade and it's self sufficient, and it impacts the Russians working and eating there, how does this impact the Russian invasion, unless it's just one more (small) way to our pressure on Russians to push against their govt. The cutting off of food also reminded me of the Berlin Airlift, where the West had to airdrop countless tons of food to starving people stuck on the Communist/Socialist side of the wall, none of their own fault. Is that where we're headed with this too? We planning to try to cut off enough critical resources and starve the Russian people in hopes it forces Putin into retreat? Again, I'm not fully understanding the impact of this move when it's Russian people working and feeding Russian people, not the govt or military, so if it's just a politically savvy gesturez then call it so, because it doesn't seem to do anything to hurt their economy or resources if their McDs are all self sustained with locally sourced supplies.

From a 2019 article:
"With tensions building between the U.S and Russia, Russia placed a mandate on McDonald’s to use local distributors for their menu items. Since 2018, McDonald’s has been using locally sourced products for 98% of items. They began using Russian-grown potatoes and a Russian factory is used to produce the original McDonald’s french fry, along with Country Style Potatoes for all Russian franchises."

www.thetravel.com/best-mcdonalds-food-russia/ "

Hi @Hawkins001 I appreciate you posting this with a nice tone, genuinely: this exact type of comment is actually pretty much why I made this thread. I do believe it be well-meaning but it is bang your head against a wall inaccurate. I'll drill down a bit into some of the fallacies. @Gladioli23 has done a great job and made very good points.

1: cutting off Russians feeding Russians, 'critical resources': BEEP! Russia is one of the biggest grain producers in the world. If there is hunger, it would be a political decision. McDonalds etc are also not key to keeping people fed. As you said, they source their materials in Russia. But these are cheap and most of the value added (and hence income for the Kremlin) is for the addition of the McDonalds-ness on top. If you are saying these potatoes are and will stay in Russia, how does cutting them into curly fry shape stop starvation when a round potato won't? You will notice as well that people have not been trying to force eg health companies to cut off Russia. I would not want to see e.g. no ability to get insulin, regardless of the fact this is happening to those in Ukraine.

2: the point about not understanding how sanctions that impact ordinary Russians affect anything: BEEP! This is a very fundamental lack of understanding of what an economy is. How it works, and how a government makes money. I'll break it down.

Firstly: Russia is on a war footing, putting government money towards the war effort. And an increasingly high level of it. This is not a government that tends to spend it's money for the good of citizens. We don't want them to keep getting this money, because it pays for bombing civilians. Running a war is exceptionally expensive. It's the foreign policy equivalent of using a Bentley to tow a Bentley. So: we are agreed that we want to cut off the money going into the Russian war machine.

BUT remember Russia is a society where wealth is highly concentrated and where the state has little respect for private property. There is no clear line between state and citizens. There is no one bank account marked 'government' and one marked 'citizens.' For multiple reasons.

So Chanel is no longer selling handbags, IKEA is no longer selling bookcases. Why does this negatively affect the Russian war? Well firstly they are no longer importing goods, paying import taxes, paying for shipping handled by Russian companies that pay taxes. They are no longer sold in shops that are paying taxes (eg the Russian versions of business rates, etc: please don't quiz me) and paying bills to state-owned companies. And they are no longer paying corporate taxes (please don't quiz me on Russian tax policy...). They aren't paying for fancy Russian-based lawyers and accountants.

Basically: in short, an entire circular economy of wealth generation had ground to a halt, with devastating effects for the national coffers. IE for the Kremlin war machine.

As well as this, they are no longer paying for advertising. And this is a BIG one. Because Russia has basically shut down independent media. So e.g. McDonalds would essentially be handing over money directly to the Kremlin otherwise. We're talking billboards and tv and magazines and radio and the whole lot.

And eg McDonalds is a global company, the idea of all of these companies being 'self sufficient' shows a lack of basic understanding of the globalised economy. It's just simply untrue, it hasn't been for a very long time. Even if the food raw ingredients are, this is actually one of the very low end of the expenses of running McDonalds. The economy is highly globalised and the point is to stop these flows into and out of Russia that generate the funding for the war machine.

And why is having money sloshing around in bank accounts in Russia undermining sanctions? Because banks having this in their accounts stops them going bust, it allows them to prop up the government, it stops economic contagion, and they can lend this e.g. McDonalds money towards e.g. paying for the next round of cluster munitions. Remember the major recessions we have seen: banks having issues with liquidity (ie liquid assets like money) screws the economy. The government are forced to intervene: but sanctions targeting the central bank stop them from using these tools. So the economy crashes and the Kremlin is screwed.

Also, these banks have big loans to other banks or foreign countries that they need to pay back on set timelines. Now they don't have mine to do this. Fuck. So they start down the death spiral, and Russia is now a BAD place to invest.

Let's say I'm a businessman in India, I make investments and do loans. Russia's banks are screwed, so I won't be loaning them money. Also their economy looks terrible, so I won't be investing e.g. in the infrastructure project there: I'll invest in one in Japan instead. Now Russia is a pariah when it comes to investment, no money is flowing into it from companies or states beyond the sanctions list, because it is no longer favourable.

Or let's say I'm a manufacturer of tyres in Russia. I can no longer get certain parts I need through the established supply routes, if I do get them I have to pay more and face disruption. My output and my sales are affected. I can no longer access the bank loans I would usually use as part of my process. I am now no longer paying so much VAT or company tax. I am also no longer apply to supply the amount of new tyres Russia needs for its military.

This is all an absolutely gross oversimplification, but I hope it makes the basic point.

To deal briefly with the other affects of sanctions, which I think people generally understand well:
Firstly to show people just how strongly the world feels. Even if they choose to believe Kremlin propaganda, the government can't hide that. It drives this home. People in Nazi Germany shrugged their way through the Holocaust because it didn't affect them personally. People in Russia are not going to starve (unless by political choice) but they should visibly see comforts like fancy face creams or western clothing brands being removed. It drives home the point and it makes people less likely to support the war as they're fundamentally selfish. It means even if you are in denial, you will know that SOMETHING has changed. Let's call it the South Africa effect.

It also means people's patience runs thin with the government. The country becomes increasingly ungovernable, perhaps through strikes, riots, increased black market dealings (although Russia is already a rouge state), runs on the banks as people loose trust. This both (a) limits the Kremlin's options and (b) potentially threatens the future of the war.

Another point: a slightly different aspect of the sanctions is to explicitly stop Russia getting materials necessary to the war, e.g. computer chips. This is important, but with plenty of money sloshing around these items could typically be replaced from somewhere else, but usually with a lot of difficulty and expense. Now Russia won't have the option.

OP posts:
WhatsGoingOn2022 · 08/03/2022 23:28

@Hawkins001 sorry that this was so long!!! It's a complex issue though so I thought it best to go through some of the basics of economics together, hoping it makes sense

OP posts:
Hawkins001 · 08/03/2022 23:31

[quote WhatsGoingOn2022]@Hawkins001 sorry that this was so long!!! It's a complex issue though so I thought it best to go through some of the basics of economics together, hoping it makes sense[/quote]
Dont apologise for the length, more information is always appreciated, thank you for your analysis, it will certainly help me understand better. Thanks again for your assistance.

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 08/03/2022 23:43

@Aristalese

Soviet occupation the lesser of the two evils would be the occupation.

Believe me from experience, this is not lesser of the two evils.

Yes to highlight this point: People on this thread and others have cheerily enough stated that they would just accept Kremlin rule. If you could have one key take away: ask yourself, if this isn't such a bad thing, WHY are people in that region willing to die to avoid it? WHY have countries in that region fought so hard to get away? WHY were people willing to die to bring down the corrupt pro-Kremlin leaders?

There is nowhere near enough time to run through even the highlights reel of why this is an offensive thing to say as someone who lives in a free and wealthy country. Please look up what life is like in Belarus to understand what we mean. Some examples of what you would face:

Any fit young men in your family? They would be forcefully conscripted into the Russian army and sent to fight in wars (as Russia have recently done to men in Crimea).

Do you like news or entertainment? You will only be able to see Kremlin propaganda, even going off script is dangerous.

Do you have gay family members? The gay clubs they go to are shut, their existence is banned, and they may be sent off to concentration camps for murder as they are in Chechnya (if you think I am exaggerating, please look online: but only if you have a strong stomach).

Do you have religious beliefs? Say goodbye to anything that's not the accepted narrative. Light a candle for a cause you care about? There are secret police in the church ready to abduct you (as occurred last week in Belarus).

Do you pay tax and expect to get services in exchange? Well congrats, you'll be paying more and it will be buying a yacht for your corrupt leaders. Say goodbye to schools and health and infrastructure.

Do you want the country to get richer, trade abroad, bring jobs and prospects? That's banned too.

Do you think your neighbours in e.g. Moldova are lovely people? Well your country is now the base sending missiles at them, and you've just has a 'referendum' agreeing to let Russia keep their nukes on your land, pointing at your neighbours.

Do you have daughters? Check out forced marriages in Chechnya, of teenage girls to bigamist military commanders.

Do you like your language, your local artists, your culture? These will be banned and beaten out of you. Russia has already intentionally destroyed the museums of famous Ukrainian artists.

Do you like having police who run the state? Well now it is lawless and the money goes to gangsters who terrorise, rape and murder at will.

And if you try to say any of this is not working for you: you will be disappeared and tortured in a basement (Belarus), or assassinated in the street in front of your family.

This is just a teeny tiny snapshot.

OP posts:
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