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Ukraine and Russia: Answering common questions and issues

990 replies

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 05/03/2022 12:29

Hi, I am starting this thread due to the amount of misinformation and speculation I have seen on the boards around what is happening with Russia's war on Ukraine.

While I am by no means a leading specialist, I have a master's degree focusing on the defence and economics aspect of international relations, I work today in politics and have a lot of links in the area. Anything I can't answer I can at least point you to the people who can-- I naturally follow this incredibly closely.

I thought it might be helpful if myself and others with specific knowledge in this area could help to answer any questions you have, on anything from the war, to sanctions, to Russia's actions, to the fallout.

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WhatsGoingOn2022 · 08/03/2022 23:53

@strawberriesarenot

Thank you Down Native

Perhaps this could be the beginning of the 'off road' that Putin needs?
Or is that much too hopeful?

It seems to me impossible that Ukraine can be given air cover, I understand why Zelensky is still asking. I don't understand how he can see such suffering and still carry on as he is. The brutal fact is, that in a choice of losing everything cf. Soviet occupation the lesser of the two evils would be the occupation. And hope that it wouldn't outlast Putin.

Hi @strawberriesarenot I've addressed this just now (I think the post before this one) but without wanting to sound like I'm some American social justice warrior, I think it would be a good idea here to 'check your privilege.'

Please look into the history of Russian suppression here. I am not meaning to sound scary and gory here but you would be talking about would be violent repression. It's not a 'get on with lives, new brass plaque on the city building' kind of situation.

Did you know that people in North Korea are literally shorter than in South Korea, as a result of the lack of nutrition they have under the regime? Russia has a history of intentionally starving Ukraine, despite Ukraine being one of the foremost grain producers in the world. The Holodomor genocide perpetrated by Russia on Ukraine killed some 4 million people, as well as 6.1 million birth defects.

Ukrainians are not just fighting for democracy and a government they like, but in many cases for their lives.

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WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 00:11

@Mikey555

Thank you so much for this thread OP.

I have found this an amazing read. I have a bit of a stupid question and do not want to derail.

I don't want to seem as if this is ignoring the catastrophic humanitarian crisis. However, financially (especially as Germany will see major economic problems) do you think the Uk will fair better or worse having left the EU?

Sorry if this offends anyone

Hi, no problem!

So this is something that I feel I should know the answer to, but actually can't claim to at this point because I have not had a chance to look in detail at the precise sanctions, nor the economic measures taken by either the EU or UK.

Germany is exposed to the risk but also has a mighty economy with pretty rock solid institutions. It will be hit hard, but have far better tools to weather the storm than many that get off comparatively lighter.

What the EU institutions are doing: they have taken bold steps on economic leadership, again I have not had a chance to read this in full.

There's also the currency situation. I like to think of a shared currency like this: imagine lots of boats (countries) tied tightly together with rope, on waves. They are all bobbing up and down, but the tight ropes means the ones doing well are weighed down by the ones doing worse, while the ones doing worse are pulled up by the high riders. Which helps keep them all more balanced and prevents such extremes.

Not being in the shared currency means the UK is free to bob up or down much more drastically. It also means that it is free to take economic decisions without having to consider the influence of the others. This undoubtedly can be an advantage if used well: e.g. Germany and other strong economies can get hit with policies that benefit the EU as a whole over their economy.

HOWEVER. That is much more how the Brexit economy and the pound would work in theory, if it had gone to the unrealistic vision: Britain would have sailed an independent course like the US, able to make its own patterns, freely dipping in and out of different economic circles. In reality, at this time Britain is still tied to the others, but without a vote on the common decisions. Despite putting itself outside of the single market and customs union it has not replaced these influences, so they will arguably not hit them any weaker.

The UK also doesn't have the strength and protection of the size of the block, if things start to go badly. For example, their ability to borrow money off other countries, or to issue bonds (think of them as IOUs) to finance themselves through a difficult time may prove less successful.

So I can't give a clear answer on this at this point, partially due to not having read analysis on the area or much of the actual economic measures being taken. Inflation plus rising energy costs is not a combination anyone would wish for. I would not want to be the person in Treasury making the decisions at this point! They will be painful, however they do have plenty of tools at their disposal.

I'll aim to give a more informed answer down the line. I'm sorry, I know that was very vague! But these would be my starting thoughts if I were going to analyse it.

OP posts:
WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 00:13

Oh sorry and I forgot to say: the City of London will also be highly exposed. This is quite a significant part of the UK economy so could make a real difference, even if other parts are largely not directly affected.

BUT the energy costs and inflation are a really negative combination that will hit across industries and sectors.

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WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 00:31

On the McDonalds issue, I also want to make one more quick point:

The article with the misconceptions stated two basic premises:
(1) removing McDonalds would starve people
(2) removing McDonalds would have no hit on the economy as the food materials are Russian

Now look at the two of these, and consider how they could be true simultaneously. You'd be saying that if Russians didn't have curly fries but DID have that same pile of raw potatoes, they would starve. It doesn't make sense, does it?

Then to look at the second one in more detail: how does the same item give a different amount to the economy/tax system if it's the same raw materials? Well pick up a Chanel handbag and a Zara one. Hundreds of pounds of VAT vs a couple of pounds for the Kremlin coffers. It doesn't matter if they are the same leather and hardware. IE a curly fry vs a potato.

If you're interested in this, I would recommend looking at countries that grow coffee vs countries that grind/package it. Much of the profitability is in this later stage. Even though you could grind those raw beans at home. The farmers sell them for only a tiny fraction of what you pay. Looking at this basic formula, McDonalds is the middle man of the coffee grinder/packager. If you remove them from the mix it doesn't stop people having coffee, but it does stop most of the profit and tax from being generated.

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MaybeSomeDay7 · 09/03/2022 00:37

Thank you for all.of this, great analysis.

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 00:41

@Purplecatlover

Re the planes, how does Poland shipping them to Germany for disposal by the us help get them to the Ukrainians? I get that now the USA is free to give them to whoever they want but I don’t get why plans can’t just do that?

Re occupation being better, no it’s not! Even from the towns closest to Russia people are fleeing to the west, not to Russia. Ask yourself why they would choose to travel hundreds of miles to safety through bombing and being shift at rather than less than a hundred miles to Russia? Go and watch tonight’s c4 news on catch up, just the first ten minutes, if that’s not enough go on Twitter and listen to the refugees, listen to what the people are saying.

Poland is in a vulnerable geographical position and therefore would feel a lot more comfortable with the US being the ones who put themselves out there. I think it's very understandable that they both want to do everything to help, while also feeling nervous about it.

And at the risk of sounding very cynical: despite trusting NATO, were I to be a state like Poland on the front line, if I ever did something a little bit on the riskier side about Russia I would absolutely make sure to dip the US's hand in the blood at the same time. So you have the double security guarantee of (a) NATO and (b) the Russians would be angry at the US, not you, so they're now equally on the frontline.

The whole giving arms to others rather than fighting yourself, handing this in roundabout ways, etc may look laughable: it is on some level! However it's also the basic premise of the Cold War. The Cold War was never 'cold', it was just never direct!

However it looks like in the last few hours the US has made clear it's not keen on the plan, and that Poland were getting ahead of themselves.

I really don't think this disagreement playing out in the open like this is sending the right signals or making NATO look united. It sounds however like efforts from Poland to pressurise the US into further action, while the US tries to pull back slightly.

But then on energy sanctions, the US has been pressuring Europe. So there's a bit of contradicting priorities here.

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Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 09/03/2022 02:55

Serving soldiers have gone awol and taken themselves to Ukraine to fight. Reported in the mail and the sun complete with a picture of the youngest (19) with his face blurred out but it’s also here (I have no idea of the credentials here but it’s less sensational the others) universalcreditsuffer.com/2022/03/09/mod-scrambles-to-stop-british-soldiers-going-awol-to-ukraine/

Mikey555 · 09/03/2022 07:41

Thank you OP for replying and again thank you for starting this thread.

Aristalese · 09/03/2022 07:47

@WhatsGoingOn2022 I think this proves my earlier point (re planes), sadly.

On Brexit, just to add:

  • the above analysis is hypothetical aof course UK never had the common currency with EU
  • whilst EU is more dependent on Russian gas atm, it is cutting it down by 2/3rds by the end of this year. So in theory prices may be hit more in the meantime BUT they are much lower to begin with in comparison to the UK and they haven't risen as heavily post-pandemic due to its strong purchase power in the first place, so the starting position for the UK is worse.
  • UK's economy has shrunk as a result of Brexit and had a double whammy with the pandemic. Now it's a triple whammy due to Russia-Ukraine war when it comes to supply prices. If you look at it in the most simplified of ways, the EU has avoided the triple whammy and stays on double. It is far better prepared to continue without UK contributions than UK ever presented to its own citizens.
  • EU is not a military alliance unlike NATO, ie it has no joint army and Member States can make use of their army independently of the EU. This is because this is the domain of sovereign EU Member States. Whilst there is some collaboration here and they can't be aggressors towards each other (as the EU was created to strengthen peace and stability in the first place), the principle of territorial sovereignty stands. So from that point of view this is largely irrelevant.
  • The UK missed an opportunity to provide the crucial tangible benefit to its own citizens as a result of Brexit that it claimed would happen.

Let me explain. As a result of the hostile environment policy in this country, you've continued to bleed out EU citizens, particularly Polish which was a significant minority, from circa 2013. Why? Because people don't want to feel unwelcome and unwanted. Criticised with no justification when most work very hard and are clear net contributors to your economy. Salaries in home countries rose in the meantime so there was no major benefit in staying in a hostile place. Which is what the Conservatives wanted.

However. They promised you the land of opportunity - the simplified version was the 'Eastern Europeans' (as they weren't accurate enough to even refer to us as citizens of our own individual countries, it was easier to stick to 'that bunch of poor post-Soviet people coming over here and taking our jobs' mislabelling and rhetoric) will go home and leave jobs and millions of houses for all of you to take, Britons will become a richer, a more unified nation and all will be hunky dory.

That was a blatant lie. The housing crisis in tjis country isn't caused by EU migration and never has been. So from that point of view, it was statistically insignificant.

The jobs left by the EU workers who returned to home countries vary between skilled and unskilled. All of them were experienced however. And this is where you've got a problem - UK Gov lied that this would create opportunities for Britons thanks to Brexit because Britons either can't or don't want to take them. I'll give you an example. There have been hundreds of Polish anaesthetists working for the NHS and privately here. Shock horror, we aren't here only to pick your fruit, I know! Many are gone, back to Poland or working in a different EU country that obviously benefitted from them moving away from the UK. You can't expect an average Briton to just take their jobs. It takes years of training and experience. Which, the crux of it, UK Gov never promoted these jobs AND never contributed to fund training for them. Instead you have extremely expensive universities and virtually hardly any support for students. I can keep going with this, as you'll have the same or similar issue of lack of training and/or experience with builders, electricians, tilers, chefs, hospitality sector, nurses, care sector, you name it. People don't just wake up one day with skillset, qualifications or experience required to performed them.

So Britons missed the boat. That had a potential to actually benefit the people of this country. The opinion about your country within the EU nosedives as a result of hostile environment and the knowledge that inevitably Brexit won't benefit you as you were told.

The pandemic hits when Brexit is happening and the shortage of workers crisis gets even worse in the UK because more of those EU citizens who might have stayed decide to move back to home countries for obvious reasons, to be with families. Obviously they won't bring their families here as they couldn't stay here at that point anyway. The triple whammy hits.

So you now have huge gaps. These gaps need to be filled. You have millions of people, skilled and experienced fleeing Ukraine now. Looking for normal life. Looking to work in their own jobs. Looking to rebuild their own country afterwards.

You are going to take years now that you failed to take pre-Brexit and between 2016 referendum and 2021 when it came to force, to prepare yoir own people to cover job shortages. You can't easily cover them now and your economy is taking a blow after blow - meaning everyone here is feeling it.

And then you have the Home Office processing...300 visas for the refugees.

To be clear, my view is that refugees are that, people fleeing war who need help and there is no such thing as net contributions to economy that should be considered frankly. But the point is that somehow, the UK has mastered the art of self-sabotage, firstly not helping its own citizens and misleading them, and secondly not helping people who desperately need help and could actually immensely benefit this country and all living here. You'd rather bring people in from the other side of the world that will also take a while to organise and therefore isn't the answer. It's incomprehensible. And if there's no logic to it then it's usually the case the government(s) has been lobbied and there's a narrow group of important people who benefits from this mess, to simplify this. Not you or I, of course.

So will the UK benefit as a result of Brexit and in the context of this war? In my view, no. Will it be worse here than in the EU? Quite possibly.

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 08:18

UK has mastered the art of self-sabotage, firstly not helping its own citizens and misleading them, and secondly not helping people who desperately need help and could actually immensely benefit this country and all living here

Aristalese that is an excellent post, particularly the point above. It is shameful that the UK is not opening its doors I'm the way rest of Europe is. Although Scotland and Wales would like to, but are hamstrung by Westminster.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/mark-drakeford-uk-government-boris-johnson-first-minister-cabinet-b2031180.html

madbadrad · 09/03/2022 08:24

I agree completely @ClaudineClare the way we are treating the Ukrainians refugees is appalling. I've written to my MP about this.

madbadrad · 09/03/2022 08:29

Thank you for this very level headed thread, OP. It's become such a useful resource. I wholeheartedly agree with your post about soviet occupation. It shocks me that anyone would suggest this being the lesser of the two evils, however I think people here can be rather complacent about the level of freedom we have.

Kendodd · 09/03/2022 08:40

I remember demonstrating in Belarus a while ago and gov crackdowns. Could the situation in Ukraine, and the people power fighting back embolden Belarussians to take to the streets against their gov again? And if so, how would that play our? Maybe the situation in Ukraine means the very opposite and makes Belarussians want to just keep their head down or perhaps they are also hostile to Ukraine?

Aristalese · 09/03/2022 08:46

To be clear, I do understand the need for security checks, or enhanced security checks but even with that in mind, to process 300 applications out of 20k+ submitted, to severely limit the ability to even apply and considering we're rapidly approaching 2m people fleeing the war cannot be excused.

Merrymouse · 09/03/2022 08:49

It’s the ridiculous ‘world leading’ claims on visas that worry me. It implies a lack of focus and competence and a sense of complacency on this issue.

LondonMummer · 09/03/2022 08:57

OP I wholeheartedly support sanctions and believe they are our best chance of making a real impact however I'm extremely concerned about the anti-Russian rhetoric and risk of xenophobia.

In my community a shop selling Russian goods was boycotted until it was pointed out it was run by Ukrainians. I worry about the Russian children at my children's school.

Outside of the 'baddie' oligarchs most people don't have a clue about the politics of Russians living in their communities and anti-all Russians today can easily become anti all sorts of 'foreigners'. How seriously do you think Western governments take this? Only occasionally do they underline that these actions are anti Putin not anti Russia

Aristalese · 09/03/2022 09:04

@LondonMummer I am not condoning treating people worse because of their nationality (obviously!) but isolating anyone who supports VP is the right thing to do, regardless of who they are. So I take your point that this shouldn't be a blanket cover for 'all Russians'. However, and that's unfortunate, do you realise that the actual level of support of VP amongst Russians in the West might be higher than you imagine? To put it bluntly, if they moved here permanently or long term, they had to meet certain economic criteria first. I'd take this one step further and ask how they've met them in the first place if not living in and benefitting from VP's run Russia? These aren't the first atrocities of VP if you look at the last 20 years.

ShipwreckSunset · 09/03/2022 09:10

@WhatsGoingOn2022Is there any information in how ordinary Russians feel about the invasion? Very hard to get an unbiased view or openly voice dissent though, I’m sure.

I was surprised to see BBC were still allowed to broadcast from Russia. There was a report with them asking members of public if they supported Putin and they said ‘200%’ - although I can’t imagine you could say much else publicly without fear of repercussions.

Onlywomengivebirth · 09/03/2022 09:27

On Poland and the aircraft. I get the dipping of the US’s hands in blood buffer tactic, but surely, ultimately Russia would see this (the supply of aircraft) as an act of aggression from Poland? Regardless of any convoluted supply chain method?

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 09:32

@Aristalese

To be clear, I do understand the need for security checks, or enhanced security checks but even with that in mind, to process 300 applications out of 20k+ submitted, to severely limit the ability to even apply and considering we're rapidly approaching 2m people fleeing the war cannot be excused.
Yes I wrote an incredibly snarky email along those lines to my MP-that I would like to thank the Home Secretary personally for all her work on this, as I could only assume she was hand writing and processing these herself. Perhaps it might help to have more than one person on the job.

Separately: while the Home Office is utterly incompetent at the best of times (genuinely, and I stand by this) in this case it's clearly intentional too. It's intended to create barriers so that people in a desperate situation can't come to the uk.

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WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 09:33

[quote ShipwreckSunset]@WhatsGoingOn2022Is there any information in how ordinary Russians feel about the invasion? Very hard to get an unbiased view or openly voice dissent though, I’m sure.

I was surprised to see BBC were still allowed to broadcast from Russia. There was a report with them asking members of public if they supported Putin and they said ‘200%’ - although I can’t imagine you could say much else publicly without fear of repercussions.[/quote]
BBC aren't allowed to broadcast in Russia anymore, they were banned around a week ago.

What they have done instead is make themselves available on the dark web and also over short wave radio, which Russia can't block effectively.

On public opinion: there's been some discussion of that throughout, unfortunately at this point it's generally not good news. Russians overall are backing this.

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WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 09:40

@Kendodd

I remember demonstrating in Belarus a while ago and gov crackdowns. Could the situation in Ukraine, and the people power fighting back embolden Belarussians to take to the streets against their gov again? And if so, how would that play our? Maybe the situation in Ukraine means the very opposite and makes Belarussians want to just keep their head down or perhaps they are also hostile to Ukraine?
There has been quite a bit of unrest in Belarus the last few weeks because of this. If you look at people like Hanna Liubakova on twitter you can see a lot more of what is happening on the ground. There have been a lot of arrests and some civilian tampering with railways to prevent their military becoming involved. And of course they had the 'referendum' to allow Russian nuclear weapons in their country. There was a lot of unrest that day.

A part of me wonders if Lukashenko's seeming U-turn decision to not send his army into Ukraine is based on realising the security situation at home could deteriorate fast.

Background for people: in Russia Putin enjoys genuinely high support. In contrast, it would be quite funny to see how Lukashenko fares without an army sitting over his shoulder.

There has also been a lot of outspoken anti-war work in the military too, if you look on Twitter accounts for the circle of Svetlana Tikhanovskaya.

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theDudesmummy · 09/03/2022 09:41

I just heard the BBC say on the Today programme that they are to resume reporting from Russia.

theDudesmummy · 09/03/2022 09:46

I don't believe the BBC (or the NY Times, who have just pulled out of Russia for the first time in 100 years) have actually been banned from reporting at all. But were they to report actual reality the reporters could face 15 years in jail. Not sure what the BBC is planning to report now they say they are back.

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 09/03/2022 09:50

Sorry yes, on Brexit, currencies and the impact on the UK:

Britain was not in the single currency but by being in the EU, the single markets and the customs union there were at least theoretical restraints on what actions they could take (although not as much as those who used the euro). In theory, Brexit would mean the UK economy becoming less affected by what is happening in Europe. BUT this has not occurred because the UK has not replaced those European links, nor does it have the scale of economy to make its own gravity. So it gets pulled along by Europe, who no longer have to consider UK economic interests.

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