Ukraine and Russia: Answering common questions and issues

[WhatsGoingOn2022]

Hi, I am starting this thread due to the amount of misinformation and speculation I have seen on the boards around what is happening with Russia's war on Ukraine.

While I am by no means a leading specialist, I have a master's degree focusing on the defence and economics aspect of international relations, I work today in politics and have a lot of links in the area. Anything I can't answer I can at least point you to the people who can-- I naturally follow this incredibly closely.

I thought it might be helpful if myself and others with specific knowledge in this area could help to answer any questions you have, on anything from the war, to sanctions, to Russia's actions, to the fallout.

Brilliant information thread thanks, Op! I have a question that goes off on a tangent but am wondering what this could mean for the Balkan? In particular Milorad Dosis and BiH.

*Dodik

BTW for the poster earlier who claimed I exaggerated the Russian army's history of war crimes: here are some of the highlights reel that might explain why Ukraine isn't feeling so comfortable in your assertions that the Russian army doesn't have such a reputation. BTW this is just some of the highlights reel from the period under which Putin has been in command, and these are just the uncontroversial ones that Wikipedia is happy to publish as fact.

Chechnya 1: war crimes perpetrated included:
-use of illegal cluster bombs on market, gas station and hospital
-Samashki massacre of 100 civilians
-shooting civilians at checkpoints, shooting captured soldiers
-two cases of murdering humanitarian aid workers
-officers firing on soldiers who refused to follow orders to execute civilians

Chechnya 2:
-Elistanzhi cluster bomb attack on civilians
-Grozny strike on market, killing over 100 civilians
-rocket attacks on refugee convoys
-attack on refugees fleeing Grozny
-Alkhan-Yurt massacre: murder looting and rape
-Noyve Aldi massacre: murder looting and rape
-Staropromyslovsky massacre
-Katyr-Yurt bombing
-Grozny bombings killing thousands of civilians
-use of vacuum bombs (Thermobaric weapons) which creates a vacuum that causes suffocation
-hospital attack to murder 6 charity aid workers by FSB agents
-rape used as a torture tactic
-around 3-5,000 'disaperances'
-widespread allegations that this targeting of a minority group and demonisation of them amounted to a genocide

totalling around 20-30,000 civilian deaths in the first war, estimated 40-45,000 in the second (although other sources say significantly higher). Around 1/10 of the total population killed, 57 known mass graves.

Georgia:
-deliberate attacks on feeling civilians in South Ossetia
-deliberate attacks on fleeing civilians in Gori
-multiple bombings of civilians as well as plundering, burnings and kidnappings
-cluster bombs on civilians
-deliberate targeting of civilians
-failure to protect ethnic cleansing

Ukraine 2014-2021:
-hostage taking, beatings, destroying medical equipment and occupying hospitals (by insurgents)
-mass civilian killings with mass graves later uncovered
-parading captured Ukrainians through streets at gunpoint with jeering and threats
-detention camps and further mass graves
-summary executions, executions of captured soldiers

-cluster bombs
-pop up courts with 'show of hands' for death sentence
-shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (around 300 killed)

Syria:
-deliberate targeting of civilians and air workers with bombs
-deliberate targeting of schools, hospitals and civilian homes described by Amnesty as 'some of the most egregious war crimes'
-looping around after bombing civilian targets to target the aid workers who come to help
-extensive use of cluster munitions developed secretly in Russia
-indescriminate bombing of civilians with cluster bombs and firebombing (especially in Aleppo and Eastern Ghouta)
-policy of not taking prisoners (ie shooting captives)
-544 civilians bombed dead in Idlib
-43 civilians killed in a market
-airstirke on a refugee camp killing 0
Russian airstrikes in Syria killed around 18,000 including 8,000 civilians (this is specifically what the Russian's did, not what Assad did with their weaponry)

I've been following this thread with interest and it's very informative and has actually cleared up a few things for me but then you go on and make a comment like this
"This is why I get so enraged by attempts to compare what Russia does and is doing with other western countries at war. While the US and others have committed provable war crimes, unless you go back as far as Korea it's hard to find examples of them being so planned and intentional and on such a scale. The Kremlin's army is a whole other level of barbarity" and this enraged me. Russia (and others) has done exactly the same thing in other countries; the same sneaky planned out vile things that are happening in Ukraine. The only difference is that all that has been done silently without other countries showing solidarity and exposing them.

Are the ideas of the Ukrainian Azov regiment (neo-Nazis, white supremacy) commonly shared across Ukraine as they were officially accepted into the national guard in 2014? The media doesn’t seem to mention the gruesome, violent things they have done. I did a little reading after hearing Putin mention nazism in Ukraine.

Are the ideas of the Ukrainian Azov regiment (neo-Nazis, white supremacy) commonly shared across Ukraine as they were officially accepted into the national guard in 2014

No. Definitely not. It's the Kremlin propaganda.

Read up why that regiment was created where it was in the first place, which was also referred to earlier in the thread. Also consider how this alleged 'de-Nazification' actually fits in with the fact Russia is destroying any surviving memorials of the Holocaust in Ukraine.

Russia for decades acted in exactly the same way as Nazi Germany, read up about Katyń, Siberian gułags post WW2, just to offer immediate examples. So they have no traction whatsoever with this false argument.

@Aristalese okay so it’s a violent neo-Nazi political group that exists in Ukraine, but it’s “values” are not widespread? I wish Ukraine didn’t include them in their national guard

@Fieldofflowers22 The OP didn't say that other countries have clean hands, to the contrary they don't, I agree. I think the point is the Russian army's methods are known to be particularly barbaric against the civilians and have been for centuries. I don't have enough knowledge to fully compare every big army's crimes on civilians in the last say fifty years and sadly I don't think anyone actually knows the full scale of it, but nobody is trying to excuse or minimise those committed by other countries.

Treatment of civilians during war but also during theoretical peace by Russian forces, then police including what was the secret police poisoned by their ideology and trained by them, was an abomination of all human rights, one by one which has been going on since forever in all occupated or previously occupated territories. This is one of the reasons why Ukraine under Russia would be an absolute tragedy for the people. You also ought to look at how Russia treats their own, for example now protesting against the regime, no need to even look far unfortunately. The OP is making a point their overall brutal and aggressive attitude stems from the fact they are an authoritarian regime, whereas other countries are not and these methods aren't used by them day in day out. Not at all saying that war crimes of other nations are in any way 'better' than Russian, for lack of a better word. I understand what you're saying, I think perhaps the wording could've been a bit clearer here.

@Aristalese yes those gulags are like the internment camps in the US - concentration camps for innocent Japanese Americans. I wish these things were talked about more!

@PinkNails1 They are not widespread. Most Ukrainians treated Russians well or neutral, even now initially Russian soldiers weren't killed off but talked to peacefully if you recall.

The forces you are referring to were created due to the fact Russia has been pressurising Ukraine and threatening it or openly annexing its territory throughout the 2000s. It is a normal trend in politics that whenever a country is invaded or threatened, or such a narrative is mooted, there is a rebirth of nationalistic groups, the military arms of which are often particularly brutal and violent. This doesn't mean this is what that country is about. I could turn around to you and say you have/had BNP and other similar groups here so you're all racist and xenophobic because there have been many concerning articles about it in my own country's press. But this is not true, these are radical groups. Whilst the nationalistic rhethoric also gained traction in the UK because of how your politics have been steered, this is not a mainstream view. Neither is it a mainstream view in Ukraine. It's not acceptable how these groups have acted or the fact they've been absorbed by the national army, but you need to view it in the context of a nation being constantly harassed by Russia, constantly threatened and not respected as a sovereign, independent country it is. It builds up an aggressive response. I've said up the thread if you look up the treatment of ethnic minorities in Belarus or for example Kresy (formerly Poland) by the Russians then you will see that Azov really didn't come up with anything new and it was the case of you fight with a sabre, you'll die from it as our saying goes. Of course this will be used as an excuse for the war now by the Russians - only they have ignited it themselves in the first place, again, it's the usual strategy. If there was no reason, they would always 'find' (create) one.

@PinkNails1 They were concentration camps. Only the world chose to call them something else probably to differentiate from the Nazi Germany ones, but there were hardly any (if any) practical or ideological differences.

Very interesting posts, thanks @WhatsGoingOn2022 and @Aristalese

This thread is fascinating, thank you for sharing your insights.
Sorry if this has been asked/covered but I keep seeing these maps showing where Ukrainians are fleeing to and I've been surprised that a significant number of Ukrainians are actually fleeing to Russia. (Albeit smaller than to other countries it's still a significant number) does this indicate that there are at least some Ukrainians who sympathise with Russia in this or are other factors at play?

I can't remember US declaring a ceasefire then raining bomb's on the humanitarian corridor??

Party I expect both. For those who live closer to that border it's likely they will use family in Russia etc so easier to go there.
Others again may just find it's closer And some will choose too be there

Some won't want too but have no other choice

@Partyatnumber10 This is out of date already, as of yesterday there are 1m+ Ukrainian refugees in Poland, as per the posts from the Polish Prime Minister Chancellery. It's a rapidly changing picture.

To answer your question, I would say this would be ethnically Russian people moving to Russia, as well as possibly some Russian men deciding to join the armed forces, as well as possibly some pro-Russian sympathisers, although you wouldn't find them in any significant numbers.

@WhatsGoingOn2022

Without wanting to go full authoritarian myself, to avoid this derailing I think it would be useful to agree some common principles going forward. Basically, if we can’t be agreed on the following points then this is not the thread for you:

1: states shouldn’t invade democratic states or get a veto over who their government is. Self determinism is important

2: Putin has no right to dictate how millions of people outside of Russia live their lives, or that they should live under repressive regimes

3: Putin has nukes, so does the west, nobody is therefore able to wholesale dictate to the other

4: we are talking here about the Ukraine situation. I don’t come onto threads about e.g. what the US does in Yemen and spew whatabout e.g. Russia in Syria. If you don’t think the people of Ukraine deserve a discussion about THEM then don’t discuss it.

I fully agree with your four points.

Regarding point 1, I agree that a country's status should be decided by the will of the people - self determination. Sadly there are many countries around the world that base a country's or area's status on history or geographical proximity such as China on Taiwan, Argentina on Falklands, Spain on Gibraltar etc. One could potentially add the calls against a second Scottish Indy referendum to the list.

On the nukes point I would say that during the Cold War in hindsight we had more experienced politicians on both sides with cooler heads yet we still came perilously close to a nuclear war on three occasions in 1962 Cuba, 1983 Able Archer and 1995 Norway. The situation we face now is as much or more serious than those incidents plus Putin has more to lose personally and is driven by his own ambitions regardless of the wider consequences so I would rather not test the logic that he would never press the button.

Could I also please ask for a fifth point that any counter arguments, corrections fact checks, criticism of your posts ARE not simply shouted down as pro Kremlin / pro Russia / pro Putin / pro Nazi etc.

Name calling to counter an argument simply undermines your credibility. This would include in my case a genuine and I believe credible fear of this conflict escalating and spreading out of control to engulf the rest of Europe.

@Aristalese I know they’re concentration camps. That’s why I brought up the camps in the US where they abused and murdered Japanese Americans. The camps in Europe and the US and other places were/are horrific.

In regards of your other point, yes BNP are disgustingly racist (I’m not white so I defo hate them) but you can’t compare them to Azov and Aidar regiments. I’m so glad these “values” are not widespread in Ukraine. I hope the government cracks down on them. Amnesty reported on how these Nazi groups have abducted, murdered, raped etc.

I don’t want WW3. Those poor men that are being forced to sign up and fight 😭😭

www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/eur500402014en.pdf

@PinkNails1 I've not compared BNP and Azov but used them as an example that a radical group does not represent the views of the nation. This is a fundamentally different point.

Re men being forced to fight, yes and no. Many Ukrainians chose to return to Ukraine from living in Poland previously to fight. Of course the war is forced upon them but there's a very strong spirit there.

One could potentially add the calls against a second Scottish Indy referendum to the list.

Point 4.

Could I also please ask for a fifth point that any counter arguments, corrections fact checks, criticism of your posts ARE not simply shouted down as pro Kremlin / pro Russia / pro Putin / pro Nazi etc

Name calling to counter an argument simply undermines your credibility. This would include in my case a genuine and I believe credible fear of this conflict escalating and spreading out of control to engulf the rest of Europe

I would like to second this point.

Could I also please ask for a fifth point that any counter arguments, corrections fact checks, criticism of your posts ARE not simply shouted down as pro Kremlin / pro Russia / pro Putin / pro Nazi etc.

This has not happened. People have gone to a great deal of trouble to explain why your points don’t carry weight. If you would like to start your own thread, that is certainly possible.

@ClaudineClare

Educating people on why their views are in fact pro-Kremlin even when they may not realise this and/or why they are damaging to the people affected directly by this war should and will not stop. It might not be what you like to hear and sorry if that's the case, but it's not the reason not to discuss it. I think some posters seem to think that using pro-Kremlin arguments is limited to being supportive of this war. To make this clear, this is not the case. You can very well be against it and still use arguments that in practice are pro-Kremlin (but not pro this invasion or its continuation). These are separate concepts which you seem to combine into one.

There is no name calling that I saw anywhere, if there is then please report any such posts to MN, this is the right tool for this.

I have seen mentioned several times that the sanctions the west is imposing will make things impossible for Russia by June. Does that mean Ukraine and Zelensky has to hold out for at least 3 months? That seems daunting!

Aristalese is it pro-Kremlin to not want this war to escalate into a full on war between the West and Russia? That is what it comes down to for me and if that is a pro-Kremlin view, or if I am playing into the Kremlin's hands by having that view, then so be it.