The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

@elephantmarchingin

I'm starting to agree that Ukraine need to work with the rest of the world here and compromise.

What, you mean capitulate to Russia?

most of "the rest of the world" disagrees with that.

What a really stupid post.

Wow that Moldova news is a big deal. They have really been trying to fence-sit for years.

An American software company has terminated its agreement with Areoflot.

Airline software giant ends distribution service with Russia’s Aeroflot, crippling carrier’s ability to sell seats

They'll no longer be able to sell tickets online. That's going to hurt a bit.

@Jux Bitcoin et al can crash 😈 way too risky for any self-respecting oligarchs 🥸

Gary Kasperov said " stop calling Putin a president, he is a dictator".

@Tigersonvaseline

Gary Kasperov said " stop calling Putin a president, he is a dictator".

Spot on

@alltheapples

The extreme far right exist in Ukraine like all countries. But unlike some countries they are a tiny minority. They only gained 1/6% of the vote in the last elections. You want to hand Russia significant control because of a tiny proportion of the population?

Well they commit a hell of a lot of recorded human rights abuse against Ukrainian people whilst being in the Ukrainian army. How on earth are you down playing it ? Why do you think they remain as a regiment in the army if they wield so little power?

I am going to repost this from the EU parliament

Ukrainian fanaticism has already claimed the first lives in this fresh conflict. On 13 February 2022, two Ukrainians of Greek descent were perceived as enemies and killed and two others were injured in a act perpetrated by individuals who were, in all likelihood, fanatical Ukrainian soldiers.

According to the ‘Save Donbass’ representative, the circumstances surrounding the two deaths, the identity of the soldiers, their unit and the likelihood of them being brought before a military tribunal have not been elucidated.

The area is being terrorised by not only Ukrainian soldiers but also mercenaries and neo-Nazi security forces. Although Ukraine has ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, it appears that non-Ukrainians are, without exception, no longer welcome in the country.

The attack took place in the village of Hranitne, which is home to a community of around 3 500 Greeks that has been living there for about 2 500 years and speaks a dialect similar to that spoken in the Georgian district of Tsalka. The first Greek church and school were erected there in the 7th century.

In view of this:

1. Can the Commission say how it plans to uncover the truth behind the killing of the two ethnic Greeks?

1. Given that the EU is funding the 2016-2023 ‘U-LEAD with Europe’ multi-donor action programme, what action has been taken and commitments made at local and regional level for the protection of the Greek community in Ukraine?

1. Does the Commission consider that Ukraine should step up the special status of the Greek minority?

I'm starting to agree that Ukraine need to work with the rest of the world here and compromise.

There isn't a compromise. The compromise is that Putin gets Ukraine. He won't accept less than that.

@elephantmarchingin

I'm starting to agree that Ukraine need to work with the rest of the world here and compromise.

But Putin does not want a compromise. He wants Ukraine. You really think Ukraine should just hand over its country to Russia?

@Bluebellsunderthetrees The Azov battalion are disgusting neo-Nazis and everyone should abhor them. I absolutely agree with you.

That unit formed after the separatist war began. The Ukrainian government was massively short of men in the east and relied on neo-Nazi street gangs to fight the separatists, they managed to retake the city of Mariupol, for example. Their reward was to be turned into the Azov battalion and part of the armed forces.

It is absolutely reasonable for eastern Ukrainians to be afraid of Azov but this should not be an excuse to not resolve the conflict. Azov is a tiny segment of the armed forces. A negotiated settlement could dictate that Azov not go anywhere near the LNR/DNR and this could be assured by neutral peacekeepers of some kind.

Russia has made it clear that when they talk about de-Nazifying Ukraine they are not talking about Azov, they are talking about the regime. They are talking about regime change.

Azov battalion needs to be destroyed but the best way to do this is to end the conflict and remove any reason for them to exist.

[quote WeAreTheHeroes]Garry Kasparov the chess grandmaster wrote a book about Putin. Here's a link to his recent tweets which make for interesting reading.

twitter.com/search?q=garry%20kasparov&t=wGg9Elh-Ta-uaq6fRyKeYw&s=03[/quote]
That was an interesting, if also alarming, series of tweets.

@Bluebellsunderthetrees that appears to be a question asked? Who asked it and in what context?
For all I know Russia could have asked it.
Please provide links.

@yoolia

I'm starting to agree that Ukraine need to work with the rest of the world here and compromise.

There isn't a compromise. The compromise is that Putin gets Ukraine. He won't accept less than that.

50:50 custody, or maybe EOW? 😂🙄

BTW I don't feel any worse after seeing that Macron/Putin call. It has been obvious all along that what he wanted was Ukraine. All of Ukraine. Not just East Ukraine, all of it. This isn't new and sobering information. This is what it has always been about. One of two things will happen now, the first of which is incredibly unlikely:

1. Someone close to him will take Putin out;
2. Ukraine will be taken by Russia, but will end up with guerilla warfare. The West will probably continue to provide weapons/intelligence to the guerillas but that's as far as it will go unless he makes a move on a NATO country. Sanctions continue and Russia is fucked. Putin eventually dies and it continues to be fucked under a new leader.

So no nuclear war but a whole heap of pain and misery. That's my analysis.

@Ijsbear well according to what has been released on BBC news it's that they remain neutral and don't join NATO

@dreamingbohemian

Yes that call readout is really worrying

God imagine having to listen to Putin for 1.5 hours

Well that was 1.5 hours he wasn't giving orders for.

@DrBlackbird

We need truly neutral international bodies, and rigid arms control. The point is that we have to change the entire structure of the international system.

yeah you seem v informed about US atrocities and incursions against other countries. Less so on other countries atrocities on their own citizens as well as towards other countries.

Just who do you think will comprise this truly neutral international body? Where will it’s members be drawn from? Who monitors and enforces the rigid arms control?? There is no way to get around national interests. And every single country in the world has national interests. Some are just better than others at forcing those interests on other countries.

The US has been called the world’s policeman. And I am not being an American apologist. God forbid. But if I had to choose between the US, Russia or China, our only three options at this point in time, to become the new world’s policeman I know which country I’d choose.

What about you?

I absolutely prefer to live under the US' (relatively) benevolent hegemony. But it's ending; we're heading towards or we're already in a bipolar world.

We're in agreement that states will act in their own self-interest and to ensure their own survival. For this reason, and given that the Pax Americana is ending, I stated that we should have taken a realist perspective with Ukraine and (to the extent that it was up to us) maintained it as a neutral buffer zone. We don't know that that would have prevented the war however. But we will increasingly have to make realistic assessments of not just where our red lines truly lie, but what we're capable of doing.

For potentially neutral bodies, I think they already exist but need to be reformed. They can't function if they're no more than puppets of specific states. In terms of arms control, there was for example a nuclear non-proliferation treaty between the US and Russia up until the US withdrew in 2002. But how to rigidly enforce disarmament and arms control - upon which the future of humanity will depend - would require a very detailed response.

I completely agree re Russia's actions at large. It has long been a source of these problems. But, my interest is how to change the structure of the international system to reduce the chance of atrocities like this. The time to prevent this war was years ago; now we can only hope to minimise the human cost and pray that there's no catastrophic miscalculation in the meantime.

FWIW I don't actually hold with the narrative that if he gets Ukraine he then goes after Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and so on. I think he will stick with Ukraine - that will be a major victory for him, whether it's a pile of rubble or not.

I also v much doubt he's got years and years left to live, that's the other thing to hold on to.

[quote alltheapples]@Bluebellsunderthetrees that appears to be a question asked? Who asked it and in what context?
For all I know Russia could have asked it.
Please provide links.[/quote]
www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000678_EN.html

And I posted this before in case you missed it. I hadn't realised that Greeks Ukrainians were target for nationalist Ukrainians
greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/01/greek-in-mariupol-fascist-ukrainian/

I think a lot of people are conflating the EU and NATO. Joining the EU is significantly less provocative than joining NATO.

@Jux

Bitcoin refuses to do anything, so all the oligarchs are busy squirrelling away their ill-gotten gains into that.

No one owns BitCoin. Therefore no one can tell it what to do.

@HeadPain

** The people of Mariupol still have no water or power and under sustained shelling.**

Cutting off warmth and water and light is one way to wear down civilians.. Bastards.

Zelensky News Conference via BBC live

Zelensky tells Nato: Send us planes
Ukraine's President Zelensky has given a news conference - where he appealed to the West to send him warplanes.

"If you do not have the power to close the skies [enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine], then give me planes," he said.

"If we are no more then, God forbid, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia will be next."

Those countries are part of the Nato defence alliance, which means if Russia invaded one it would be at war with all members.

And here's more from the Ukrainian president - who said direct talks with Vladimir Putin are "the only way to stop this war".

"We are not attacking Russia and we do not plan to attack it. What do you want from us? Leave our land," he said.

"Sit down with me. Just not 30 metres away like with [French President Emmanuel Macron]," he added, referring to the long-table talks last month.

@yoolia

FWIW I don't actually hold with the narrative that if he gets Ukraine he then goes after Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and so on. I think he will stick with Ukraine - that will be a major victory for him, whether it's a pile of rubble or not.

I also v much doubt he's got years and years left to live, that's the other thing to hold on to.

You see no benefit for him in joining the land bridge to Kaliningrad?

Should he? Obviously not. But it would certainly be beneficial.

@alltheapples
You may also want to read this
greekcitytimes.com/2021/11/04/ukraine-does-not-consider-greeks/
"The 32nd report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has updated its chronicle of Ukraine’s human right violations against civilians in the Donbass region, directly implicating the Ukrainian army, the National Guard, the Security Service of Ukraine, Far-Right militias and other power structures."

"In combination with an indigenous people’s bill, it demonstrates a Kiev that is consumed by ultranationalism and wanting to repress indigenous peoples in the country. Although the West is quick to lambast supposed human rights violations and the repression of minorities in Russia, they have consistently remained silent as Ukraine introduces laws that directly target indigenous peoples and engages in a campaign to kill civilians and destroy infrastructure in Donbass."