The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

[quote CaveMum]@oakleaffy I’m not referring to all Russians, I mean those who were granted citizenship on the basis of the fast track system based on their financial investment in the UK. According to the Guardian there are 700 such Russian millionaires.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/30/calls-for-uk-to-suspend-golden-visas-after-fast-tracking-of-russian-millionaires[/quote]
We can't just strip people of citizenship, it's a lengthy process with tight rules on when this can happen.

While I understand the desire to tackle oligarchs I wouldn't want to live in a country that makes its easier to strip people of citizenship.

We can't just strip people of citizenship, it's a lengthy process with tight rules on when this can happen.

Well it was, until Priti Patel simplified it.

While I understand the desire to tackle oligarchs I wouldn't want to live in a country that makes its easier to strip people of citizenship.

Too late. That ship sailed ages ago;.

Yes I am also curious where this 'truly neutral international body' comes from.

Powerful nations will never submit to an international institution that they do not have control over.

That is why the Security Council turned out the way it did.

I am not sure how much of this has been mentioned already as I am just dipping in and out and don't have time to read all the posts, but in relation to the Minsk agreement I found these two videos last night and they are quite horrifying to be honest, I didn't realise it was basically the Somme in eastern Ukraine and has been for years, starting in around 2014. The first video is by The Guardian and was made about 8 months ago and it of the Ukrainian side of the civil war (they call it a civil war) in the east of Ukraine, so it is all within Ukraine boders, the film takes you through the trenches and through the front line land - for people who don't like clicking on links it is called "on the Ukraine front line: 'only the dead aren't afraid' ". It won't show in youtube restricted mode.

And the second is even worse, it was filmed back in 2014 at the start of the civil war (they refer to it as the civil war). It is horrific. The man interviewed who says there were plants on the crowds to cause trouble to kick off is chilling, he says it while smiling! I am not familiar with the film maker, it is a group of films called Russian Roullette made around the same time. This unrest then turned into the civil war. There are quite desperate living situations on the Russian "side". For people who don't like clicking on links it is in youtube and called "Protest Turns Fatal: Russian Roulette in Ukraine" (2014)

There is another film which I can't find now which shows recent footage from the Russian "side", or the "separatists" side. Again, looked horrendous. From what I could gather they are very cut off, food problems and in places quite lawless, I think?

The recent films refer to the Minsk agreement but basically both sides "wait" for the other side to shoot before shooting to follow the rules from the peace agreement, but it means the fighting continues, no change

It looks like the Ukraine side got weapons from the West and the russian side from Russia. There has been a couple of meetings between Russia and Ukraine and between Russia and the US about this in the last couple of years but they were not fruitful

Jessica Elgot
@jessicaelgot
Government sources hinting new action coming today on sanctioning oligarchs - widespread internal frustration that the UK's (relatively new) sanctions regime since leaving the EU is causing hold-ups. Cabinet ministers have been privately expressing concern and asking for change.

Yes the war in eastern Ukraine has been ongoing since 2014, it has been an active war with many casualties, it just does not make the news over here.

People keep citing the 14,000 dead, the estimates are that it is almost 4000 civilian deaths and the rest split between Ukrainian and separatist militias.

It is frustrating to see people say that 'Ukraine should have sorted this war out a long time ago'. The only reason the separatists were able to create their enclaves and hang onto them is because Russia has given them a huge amount of military and economic aid, including troops on the ground. The only way Ukraine could have politically ended the war was to give those regions a huge amount of autonomy and influence over Ukrainian policy, i.e. giving Russia a huge amount of control over Ukrainian politics.

I am not saying the people in eastern Ukraine did not have valid grievances or were wrong to feel the way they do. But by putting their fate in Russian hands, they made it extremely difficult for this war to be resolved. And now here we are.

@DGRossetti

We can't just strip people of citizenship, it's a lengthy process with tight rules on when this can happen.

Well it was, until Priti Patel simplified it.

While I understand the desire to tackle oligarchs I wouldn't want to live in a country that makes its easier to strip people of citizenship.

Too late. That ship sailed ages ago;.

We have stripped other people of citizenship. But they were poor people.

@dreamingbohemian I am not going to have time to debate this for much longer as I need to work. The Russian speaking people put their faith in Russia who has funded them, I think, and the Ukrainian side is funded by the government supported by the West, I believe.

Did you watch the videos? This civil war is why Ukraine has not been accepted into the EU and NATO presumabl so there should be a lot of motivation within Ukraine to get it sorted out?

France mediated the Minsk agreements, I believe, which were detailed but have in the main not been implemented?

The videos are horrifying!

We have stripped other people of citizenship. But they were poor people.

Poor and dark.

@mybeautifulnewwashingmachine the first link you have said links to a Guardian newspaper video does not work. The second link is clear false news and if this was facebook it would be flagged as this by fact checkers. I am just reporting it to you tube.

Movement to get Russian Products taken off the shelves of UK supermarkets

There was a heartbreaking call to LBC yesterday from a Ukrainian and one of the things they said that the British public can do to help is put pressure on supermarkets in the UK to remove Russian products off of their shelves. Supermarkets in other countries in the EU are currently doing this. I have made contact with some supermarkets already but please if you are able to also do the same either by Twitter or phone as the more people that put pressure on this will help. It’s only a drop in the ocean but any small acts of help go along way.

[quote mybeautifulnewwashingmachine]@dreamingbohemian I am not going to have time to debate this for much longer as I need to work. The Russian speaking people put their faith in Russia who has funded them, I think, and the Ukrainian side is funded by the government supported by the West, I believe.

Did you watch the videos? This civil war is why Ukraine has not been accepted into the EU and NATO presumabl so there should be a lot of motivation within Ukraine to get it sorted out?

France mediated the Minsk agreements, I believe, which were detailed but have in the main not been implemented?

The videos are horrifying![/quote]
This is false news.
Ukraine is not funded by the west.
It is a democratically elected government. You may not agree with the government, but it is democratically elected.

Ukraine has not been accepted into NATO because NATO knew the Ukraine was at risk of attack by Russia. This has been talked about for years. NATO are trying to avoid a world war.

@DrBlackbird

The US has been called the world’s policeman. And I am not being an American apologist. God forbid. But if I had to choose between the US, Russia or China, our only three options at this point in time, to become the new world’s policeman I know which country I’d choose.

Thanks for this. It's a nice change from the reflexive anti-Americanism on this thread and MN in general.

@Mummytotwonow

Movement to get Russian Products taken off the shelves of UK supermarkets

There was a heartbreaking call to LBC yesterday from a Ukrainian and one of the things they said that the British public can do to help is put pressure on supermarkets in the UK to remove Russian products off of their shelves. Supermarkets in other countries in the EU are currently doing this. I have made contact with some supermarkets already but please if you are able to also do the same either by Twitter or phone as the more people that put pressure on this will help. It’s only a drop in the ocean but any small acts of help go along way.

Great idea.

I am very frustrated that MN do not monitor political threads. If this was on facebook so many posts would be flagged as posting false news. The site is being over run by people posting Russian propaganda that is demonstrably false.
The Financial Times and BBC have really good information about what is happening. Read there. You won't get anything good here.

@Mummytotwonow

Movement to get Russian Products taken off the shelves of UK supermarkets

There was a heartbreaking call to LBC yesterday from a Ukrainian and one of the things they said that the British public can do to help is put pressure on supermarkets in the UK to remove Russian products off of their shelves. Supermarkets in other countries in the EU are currently doing this. I have made contact with some supermarkets already but please if you are able to also do the same either by Twitter or phone as the more people that put pressure on this will help. It’s only a drop in the ocean but any small acts of help go along way.

Not sure I've ever seen anything Russian on the shelves of any supermarkets I've visited apart from some vodka. Do you have any specifics in mind so I can avoid them?

It is frustrating to see people say that 'Ukraine should have sorted this war out a long time ago I haven't seen that said, I have seen it said that the situation should have been sorted out a long time ago. Whether Ukraine can sort it out depends on how much their own government are backing the Ukrainian side, and how much it is other influences. I really have no idea. The West has provided a lot of weapons to the Ukraine over the last few years but i have no idea how much of this was defence and how much was being used in the civil war.

Except they aren't saying it's impossible. New laws and a new branch of enforcement agents are coming in. Keir Starmer has said Labour will support it

Err when?
It was expected last week, then this week... then we hear there is a 30 day advanced notice.... still no time table for legislation.

As @DGRossetti correctly says, there is no will to do this, just as there isn't on refugees, the Tories are wedded to Russian money/business interests, don't want it exposed and are as xenophobic as ever.

There was a heartbreaking call to LBC yesterday from a Ukrainian and one of the things they said that the British public can do to help is put pressure on supermarkets in the UK to remove Russian products off of their shelves. Supermarkets in other countries in the EU are currently doing this. I have made contact with some supermarkets already but please if you are able to also do the same either by Twitter or phone as the more people that put pressure on this will help. It’s only a drop in the ocean but any small acts of help go along way.

Did they give any examples? A lot of the "Russian" products in major supermarkets and specialist Russian stores are actually from Eastern European EU countries, because historically these were much easier to import. Not branded vodka, sweets etc, but a lot of the standard fare.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

Jessica Elgot *@jessicaelgot* Government sources hinting new action coming today on sanctioning oligarchs - widespread internal frustration that the UK's (relatively new) sanctions regime since leaving the EU is causing hold-ups. Cabinet ministers have been privately expressing concern and asking for change.

The Tories have a problem.

There is over whelming public support to do something about the Oligarchs. Especially since many can see ££££ for the tax coffers in the process - to fund the refugee bill and other pressing economic issues.

Obviously thats not going to sit well with a lot of their private and party interests.

But to not do something is effective electoral suicide too.

So they will HAVE to find a way to do something. They will try and fudge it, I have no doubt. But they can't push their luck.

This one is a vote winner and its not going to go away. A number of Tories are going to have to take personal hits and restructure their own finances.

I can't see this one just vanishing. Not when there is an economic crisis looming.

Anyway, I'm trying to stay away from this side of things to a certain extent because I think it somewhat detracts from other more pressing issues which will pile on the pressure in a much more meaningful way than a whole Tory v Labour circular argument that doesn't really ever go anywhere in particular.

Pmk

I am very frustrated that MN do not monitor political threads. If this was on facebook so many posts would be flagged as posting false news

People have managed to hold a variety of views on politics and world events and discuss them, until recently, without relying on big tech fact checkers and dismissing differing opinions as false news.

Also placemarking

As @DGRossetti correctly says, there is no will to do this

Just to clarify, there is no political will. As we can see (and as the EU minister on R4 Today noticed) the public will is great - certainly well over 52% by any metric.

@mybeautifulnewwashingmachine British firms sell weapons all around the globe to many countries. I do not agree with that. But selling weapons is not the same as the government backing a country.
The UK government have clearly backed Russia in the past as can be seen from many donations given, and honours handed out.