The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

@shreddednips

With regards to Levrov's statement, my best guess (and I'm no expert) is that it's an attempt to paint Russia as the victim to the Russian public. It could also be an attempt to increase support for Russia taking a very aggressive stance in Ukraine- Russian people will be just as frightened by the notion of a wider conflict as people in the west. I highly doubt that Levrov seriously thinks that NATO instigating a Third World War is credible.

I just assumed that he was doing impressions of Comical Ali and his utterances during Iraq II.

While I don’t disagree that diplomacy and negotiation is likely the best solution I can see why it’s unpalatable to Ukraine.

The rest of the world is asking him to potentially sacrifice his country and it’s people to save them. He looses both ways.

@shreddednips

With regards to Levrov's statement, my best guess (and I'm no expert) is that it's an attempt to paint Russia as the victim to the Russian public. It could also be an attempt to increase support for Russia taking a very aggressive stance in Ukraine- Russian people will be just as frightened by the notion of a wider conflict as people in the west. I highly doubt that Levrov seriously thinks that NATO instigating a Third World War is credible.

During the 1980s the USSR leadership was convinced that the US under Reagan was rearming in preparation for an invasion. I wouldn't be the least surprised if the current Russian leadership lives in its own bubble and believes this stuff.

From the BBC live blog, Lavrov speaking

He repeats the Russian claim that the Ukrainian government is a neo-Nazi regime and says gangs are looting towns and cities, including in Mariupol. The BBC has seen no evidence to support these claims.

Lavrov also says the Ukrainians are "now trying to use civilians as human shields".

He repeatedly refers to Hollywood and says that people should not "just look at this Hollywood movie" written by the Western media "where there is an ultimate evil".

The Russian foreign minister also says that Nato is trying to bolster the West's security at the cost of Russia's.

He compares the US to Napoleon and Hitler, saying "back in the days, Napoleon and Hitler had a goal to subjugate Europe - now Americans do so".

He says the cancelling of the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline "shows the place" of the EU, suggesting the US was behind the decision.

I’ve been watching a show on ABC Australia called ‘Foreign Correspondent’. It’s been all about the recent conflicts in Ukraine from 2014 onwards (which obviously are rooted much further back in history.) We like to think is one big democratic country but even before the current conflict it was fractured. It’s not like China coming in and just deciding to take over Australia because it fancies the iron ore and farmland.

Not saying that what Putin has done is okay. It’s horrific but it’s very much more complex than many realise.

I do think Ukraine need to make some kind of compromise. Maybe they will need to give Russia Luhansk and Donetsk. Maybe there will need to be an East Ukraine and West Ukraine.

As heroic as citizens taking up arms and throwing Molotov cocktails at the Russians is it will all end in tears.

@Roundeartheratchriatmas

While I don’t disagree that diplomacy and negotiation is likely the best solution I can see why it’s unpalatable to Ukraine.

The rest of the world is asking him to potentially sacrifice his country and it’s people to save them. He looses both ways.

The problem is no way is Putin going to just say ‘okay, we made a mistake, I’ll just ask all the troops to withdraw. I’m terribly sorry about the mess’.

There are no good solutions here just less bad ones.

The rest of the world is asking him to potentially sacrifice his country and it’s people to save them. He looses both ways.

This is the way of the world if you are not a major actor.
Stinks doesn't it.

No he isn’t. I’m also not sure he would accept as suggested by a PP an Easy Ukraine and West Ukraine because this war has made him look weak already. He might want to offset that.

RT is still on twitter too.

@DuncinToffee it's almost like having a gaslighting partner, everything they accuse you of doing they're actually fling themselves.

Russia now demanding security guarantees from Finland and Sweden.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.republicworld.com/amp/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/finland-and-sweden-receive-letters-from-putin-demanding-security-guarantees-for-russia-articleshow.html

*doing

@DomesticatedZombie
The article does discuss how the attitude on Chinese social media doesn't necessarily reflect the majority view of Chinese society - could be a similar thing to our 'Twitter effect' where Twitter gives a very distorted representation of social attitudes.

This is true, and Chinese social media certainly amplifies the nationalist fringe crazy voices. Though I’d say it’s more of a case of, from my experience, the Chinese man in the street having a basically hawkish foreign policy stance (think normal US Republicans) while the Vocal Chinese Netizens are more like the Crazies in the Republican Party. More generally, the so called “century of humiliation” - the West’s opium wars and the Japanese invasion and atrocities are still very prominent in the national psyche, so Chinese people generally still see any global conflict through that lens. Most Chinese people like Western culture and foreigners, but they detest our governments. Pretty much the same as most Westerners, just reversed.

This newspaper article helpfully explains the myths that are being spread by Russian propaganda and then repeated by ordinary people. I see some myths repeated on this thread.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/russia-ukraine-conflict-top-10-war-myths-newsguard?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR36iQh9R_eb0RwjWgEY4iallirEGrCeoxLtGrDCQoRJobIhfCwfQWhSBXo

Ukraine is a democratic country that is being invaded by a foreign power and fiercely resisted by the Ukrainians. Russia is the clear aggressor.

This would be like Ireland invading the UK with tanks and soldiers because some people in N Ireland want to be part of Ireland. We would not excuse that and say we have to take a nuanced position. We would outright condemn it as an act of clear aggression.

There is a strain of thought in Western liberalism to be understanding of both sides that in most cases is good. But when there is a clear cut case of aggression like this it is an unhelpful impulse.

Most Chinese people like Western culture and foreigners, but they detest our governments. Pretty much the same as most Westerners, just reversed.

Kind of makes you wonder how the world would be if we got rid of the power-mad people at the top, doesn't it? I am 100% sure that they would be instantly replaced by a new set with exactly the same issues, though.

And people talking about diplomacy. Have you not noticed the Russian tanks or soldiers killing lots of Ukrainian people? Russia has spurned diplomacy and negotiation and went for clear military aggression.

Power corrupts, unfortunately.

Also just reading the news. There are fears that Russia plans to invade Moldova next.
What excuses will you put forward for that?

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]@AuldAlliance There are some very good balanced articles here about what is going on - Nazis in Ukraine, Zelensky is a US puppet, West involvement etc Certainly explains why people should be pressurizing Ukraine to negotiate not madly calling for escalation based on social media propaganda memes of soldiers and puppies .

www.thecitizen.in/index.php/en/NewsDetail/index/6/21533/Ukraines-Neo-Nazis?fbclid=IwAR3q-Lvtei5Y4hdgVS0ae-Xeu5JKy-Sr5akEhxBqfX5li8UxOwaoP4L9i6M

www.thecitizen.in/index.php/en/NewsDetail/index/4/21525/The-Media-and-War

www.thecitizen.in/index.php/en/NewsDetail/index/6/21532/Ukraine-Crisis---US-Supports-Germanys-Bid-to-Emerge-as-European-Superpower[/quote]
I'm not one for unqualified statements, as I am keenly aware that life is tragically complex, but I am 100% certain that I have never madly called for escalation of this horrific war based on pictures of puppies.

I was really looking for someone to talk me through the chronology of the puppetry during the Trump administration, but I'll consult a range of independent media. The Indian one linked in your post states baldly in one article that Crimea "seceded", which is an interesting take on things.

@Roundeartheratchriatmas

While I don’t disagree that diplomacy and negotiation is likely the best solution I can see why it’s unpalatable to Ukraine.

The rest of the world is asking him to potentially sacrifice his country and it’s people to save them. He looses both ways.

The rest of world could also be asking why didn't Ukraine do more to end it's civil war, why didn't it address the atrocities committed by its own Nazi army regiment, why did Ukraine refuse to negotiate with Russia to let the Crimean people have access to water when they faced their worst ever drought? And why didn't the EU who have been so active working with Ukraine on trade deals (whilst pissing off Russia ) not do something about ?

Zelensky is not being asked to sacrifice his country for rest of the world FFS He is asking us to scarifice our peace for a problem that has been going on in his country since 2013 and where he has often refused to negotiate. I suspect because he didn't care about Ukrainians who either wanted Independence or to be Russian.

@DomesticatedZombie

Most Chinese people like Western culture and foreigners, but they detest our governments. Pretty much the same as most Westerners, just reversed.

Kind of makes you wonder how the world would be if we got rid of the power-mad people at the top, doesn't it? I am 100% sure that they would be instantly replaced by a new set with exactly the same issues, though.

I think that’s another reason I felt saddened. On a lower level we could get more connected, with better understanding not further apart.

On just a small level RA’ daughter Sofia voiced her feelings on Putin, the more we share in common the less division. Hard though to see it against the current situation.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18 that is a facile comment. No not every President launches military aggression against other countries and tries to invade them.

@DomesticatedZombie I firmly believe that Douglas Adams summed it up perfectly with this quote from The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy:

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

@DomesticatedZombie

Most Chinese people like Western culture and foreigners, but they detest our governments. Pretty much the same as most Westerners, just reversed.

Kind of makes you wonder how the world would be if we got rid of the power-mad people at the top, doesn't it? I am 100% sure that they would be instantly replaced by a new set with exactly the same issues, though.

I've had this thought too, because the vast majority of people just want to live peacefully. The problem is, people who actually want this sort of power are also the sort of people who could be dangerous when they have it.

I wonder how much this war is estimated to be costing Russia on a daily basis and how likely it is their failing economy can afford to keep it going for months, or years even if it stretches on like that. I'd imagine it will utterly bankrupt them.