The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

[quote ClaudineClare]I know some don't like her, but JK Rowling's charity Lumos is taking donations for Ukraine and guarantees that the whole of the donation goes to the cause rather than some being used for admin etc.

www.wearelumos.org/get-involved/ukraine-appeal/[/quote]
Just to add to this - JKR pays for most if not all of admin costs of the charity herself as far as I am aware, thereby ensuring the all donated money goes to the cause. This isn't just for Ukraine, it's the way the charity operates all the time. Which is pretty fucking amazing IMO.

OK @alltheapples we don't talk to the Russians - what do we do?

@Postdatedpandemic I did not say we don't talk to the Russians. I said Putin is not interested in diplomacy. We have to get him to stop some other way.
Diplomacy only works if both sides engage. If one side is not interested it can not work. And appeasement of an aggressor like Putin also does not work. It simply emboldens them to expand their aggressions.

As I said in the news there is talk that Putin is planning to invade Moldova next. If that is true, it shows this is about building a Russian empire as he has himself said.
Do we just let him do that, invading country after country?

@alltheapples

Ukraine is a democratic country that is being invaded by a foreign power and fiercely resisted by the Ukrainians. Russia is the clear aggressor.

This would be like Ireland invading the UK with tanks and soldiers because some people in N Ireland want to be part of Ireland. We would not excuse that and say we have to take a nuanced position. We would outright condemn it as an act of clear aggression.

There is a strain of thought in Western liberalism to be understanding of both sides that in most cases is good. But when there is a clear cut case of aggression like this it is an unhelpful impulse.

I am wondering why France has not invaded London, after all it is (or was before Brexit) the 6th largest French city.
And given that Brexit was probably against there wishes and certainly not in their interests, I'm surprised that was not a pretext for invasion.

@jgw1 it would be as justified as Russia invading Ukraine.

A few quotes from BBC News

'Russian foreign minister claims Russia will not deploy nuclear weapons'

'Russian foreign minister accuses western politicians of stoking fears of nuclear war'

'Lavrov says thoughts of nuclear war are not in the heads of Russians'

I was thinking about the popular Russian opposition to the war. It's extremely heartening to see it, and for the Ukrainians to see it.

But what is it worth? There were huge protests here when we went to war in Iraq. 'not in my name' was the rallying cry. But it didn't make the slightest bit of difference to government policy, and we live in a parliamentary democracy.

[quote alltheapples]@jgw1 it would be as justified as Russia invading Ukraine.[/quote]
alltheapples I agree with you on many points, and that some of Putin’s messaging is similar to here but the key difference would be NATO alliance. If we were invaded NATO countries would defend.

@MorrisZapp the Russian protests make it clear that the Russian government does not even have the support of its own people. On its own it will not stop Putin. But it is clear it is not the Russian people against Ukraine.

@MarshaBradyo Yes I agree if we were attacked NATO countries would defend. This is why I really feel for Ukraine. They are on their own fighting against a Russian invasion. No one is coming to save them.

I think you may find he has an interest in Transnistria rather than Moldova @alltheapples.

The only thing we know for sure about the Russian invasion of Ukraine is that Putin thinks it is worth it.

@bluetongue

I’ve been watching a show on ABC Australia called ‘Foreign Correspondent’. It’s been all about the recent conflicts in Ukraine from 2014 onwards (which obviously are rooted much further back in history.) We like to think is one big democratic country but even before the current conflict it was fractured. It’s not like China coming in and just deciding to take over Australia because it fancies the iron ore and farmland.

Not saying that what Putin has done is okay. It’s horrific but it’s very much more complex than many realise.

I do think Ukraine need to make some kind of compromise. Maybe they will need to give Russia Luhansk and Donetsk. Maybe there will need to be an East Ukraine and West Ukraine.

As heroic as citizens taking up arms and throwing Molotov cocktails at the Russians is it will all end in tears.

I too thought if a Divided Ukraine might be possible? But such things are never easy.

[quote Cam77]@DrBlackbird
Also on that show was a quote from a Russian woman saying "of course reports that Russia bombed Kharkov were wrong because they said they never would, so they wouldn’t". That is deeply worrying about the level of denial/media control within Russia.

You honestly think gullible dumbass citizens only reside in countries with relatively tight media restrictions? If you're looking for an idiotic/brainwashed voxpop they're easy to find wherever you are in the world. Any major city, 10 mins max. Actually I used to live in China, and found average urban Chinese people slightly more clued up on geopolitical goings on and the reasons behind them than the average Brit.[/quote]
"We don't know who discovered water, but we know it wasn't the fish"

@Postdatedpandemic I don't know. Just repeating what the news are saying about Moldova.

@oakleaffy I find it really distasteful that people on the internet are saying that a democratic country should agree to give part of their country to the foreign country that is currently invading them by military force.
How would you feel in a similar situation in France was invading and killing us and strangers on the net were musing that we should hand over Kent to the French?

[quote alltheapples]@MarshaBradyo Yes I agree if we were attacked NATO countries would defend. This is why I really feel for Ukraine. They are on their own fighting against a Russian invasion. No one is coming to save them.[/quote]
I also have understanding re why they were so keen to join NATO. Knowing you have an aggressor next door who thinks you rightly belong to them is going to make you jumpy and proactive. Unfortunately this is seen by some as making the invasion their fault too, which is a catch 22 nightmare for Ukraine.

A few quotes from BBC News

'Russian foreign minister claims Russia will not deploy nuclear weapons'

'Russian foreign minister accuses western politicians of stoking fears of nuclear war'

'Lavrov says thoughts of nuclear war are not in the heads of Russians'

Yep Putin ordered his nuclear forces to be on high alert…

[quote alltheapples]@jgw1 it would be as justified as Russia invading Ukraine.[/quote]
The more important question is would there be the same amount of inane whataboutery if they did?

The BBC news report said that Russian state media present false news about the war. It also said that people over fifty who largely depend on state media for their news do largely believe it. But people under fifty are more likely to use the internet for news and don't believe it.
It was quite a long and interesting news report yesterday evening.
So yes Russian state media does tell blatant lies and this is not like every other country.

It's worth pointing out again that although Putin has claimed that he is putting his nuclear arsenal on higher alert, to date there has been no detectable change in what is happening in Russia and believe me there are an awful lot of satellites, etc monitoring what is going on.

@jgw1 I get so tired of the whataboutery. There probably would be someone saying well France is right to invade the UK by military force because of the British war in Iraq.
It is such a stupid response.

@CaveMum

It's worth pointing out again that although Putin has claimed that he is putting his nuclear arsenal on higher alert, to date there has been no detectable change in what is happening in Russia and believe me there are an awful lot of satellites, etc monitoring what is going on.

Thanks for this reminder❤️

I've had a busy few days at work and am just catching up with these threads now.

I appreciate the links to articles I wouldn't easily have come across. Also I don't use Twitter and wouldn't know where to start, so links to significant items on there are useful. Thanks everyone - this is such an informative place.

[quote alltheapples]@Postdatedpandemic I don't know. Just repeating what the news are saying about Moldova.

@oakleaffy I find it really distasteful that people on the internet are saying that a democratic country should agree to give part of their country to the foreign country that is currently invading them by military force.
How would you feel in a similar situation in France was invading and killing us and strangers on the net were musing that we should hand over Kent to the French?[/quote]
Personally if it saved millions of people from dying I wouldn’t care if we gave half of the U.K. to France. I prefer human lives over patriotism and war any day

[quote alltheapples]@Postdatedpandemic I don't know. Just repeating what the news are saying about Moldova.

@oakleaffy I find it really distasteful that people on the internet are saying that a democratic country should agree to give part of their country to the foreign country that is currently invading them by military force.
How would you feel in a similar situation in France was invading and killing us and strangers on the net were musing that we should hand over Kent to the French?[/quote]
Only East Kent please.