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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
vera99 · 01/03/2022 19:22

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/01/battle-kyiv-will-utter-tragedy/

The battle for Kyiv will be an utter tragedy

Nothing comes as close to the chaos and confusion of urban warfare. It will likely be a bloodbath for both sides

ROBERT CLARK
1 March 2022 • 1:30pm
Almost a week of war in Ukraine and there remains much confusion as to just how much progress the invading Russians have made. While Ukrainians – ordinary people and soldiers alike – have undoubtedly put up a robust defence thus far, the next few days will unfortunately require even tougher resistance.

Indeed, Russia has played a cleverer game than some are able to see. To put this invasion into a historical perspective, Putin's forces have taken more ground than the Wehrmacht had in Germany’s blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939 in the same period of time. Many have been blinded by Ukraine’s successful defence of forward positions and the apparent avoidance of large urban areas by the invaders, as well as the Ukrainian government's effective use of social media. However, the picture on the battlefield may soon shift decisively.

Russia now appears to be close – if it has not already happened – to breaking over the Dnieper River at the strategic southern town of Nova Kakhovka. This affords its forces an almost entirely undefended land-bridge to both Odessa and, crucially, the southern approach to Kyiv. This action could effectively cut off much of the Ukrainian Army, approximately two thirds of which lay to the east of the Dnieper. Surrounded, such forces would be subject to the mercy of Russia’s next wave of reinforcements, crossing from multiple sides.

Today, social media is littered with examples of the resolute spirit of Kyiv's residents as they endure days of air raids and skirmishes in the suburbs. This a city prepared to fight, and soon it will have to. What is coming will be a tragedy for all, for nothing comes as close to the chaos and confusion of urban warfare. Largely obscured from the current Russian advance, the battle for Kyiv, a city of millions of largely armed civilians, will be nothing short of a bloodbath, for both sides.

Ukrainians hold a numerical advantage in the city, with the Russians doctrinally requiring approximately five soldiers for every armed defender. Kyiv residents and the military units already there are busy placing obstacles, road blocks, and citing likely ambush positions for the inevitable assault. Every street a sniper’s playground, each junction an ambush point for advancing armoured columns.

The break-in for the Russians will be tough, so it might well be preceded by a renewed and even deadlier orbital bombardment and artillery barrage to soften up the city’s defences and intimidate the defenders into fleeing. One of the great ironies will be that, the more dogged the defence of the city becomes, the more hubris we will see from Russian forces: we should expect Russian regard for civilian casualties to deteriorate.

We in the West have not experienced such brutal warfare save in part during the Iraq War, and before that, the Second World War. It will shock us, but we must remain resolute in our support for Ukraine’s right to exist and increasingly support them with military hardware.

Robert Clark is a Defence Fellow at Civitas. He served for fifteen years in the British military, including deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan

timetochangeusername · 01/03/2022 19:22

A friend has just started leaving reviews on trip advisor for Russian restaurants with information about what's happening in Ukraine. I think it's worth a go.

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend · 01/03/2022 19:22

Apologies for asking as I assume this will possibly have been asked earlier today.

The 40 mile convoy of Russians, why aren’t drones taking the lot of them out or at least damaging as much ground in front of them to make it impossible to reach Kyiv?

I asked this on the other thread however from what I’ve read here/being reported that the size has been exaggerated and that reports claiming the military vehicles have run out of fuel/broken down…

Ukraine must have intelligence that this convoy isn’t a threat as they would have taken similar action like they did when they obliterated a smaller Russian convoy with TB2 drones a day or so ago.

They wouldn’t need to hit the convoy also just the road into the city to stop access.

Hlglu56 · 01/03/2022 19:22

@huckie

Does anyone know what Serbia's stance is? Traditionally they're pro-Russian but would have quite a tightrope to balance on?
I don’t know very much about Serbia at all but I know they are not giving Russia sanctions and there are definitely many Serbians that are Pro Russian. I think they are Anti NATO due to the NATO bombings on Serbia in the 90s looking at some of the comments from individuals on twitter but how far this reflects the opinions of the population I don’t know? Also Russia haven’t recognised Kosovo which the Serbians are grateful for. But then they want to be part of the EU so I don’t know?

There was a lady on one of the earlier threads from a country near Ukraine and Serbia (I don’t know which) who was worried about Serbia and tensions in the Balkans. I’m afraid I don’t know anything about it though. Would love some more information.

Cam77 · 01/03/2022 19:23

@DrBlackbird
But Ukraine was still steadfast in its ambition to join NATO as recent as two weeks ago......

and more ...

"At the end of November 2020, it became known that the NATO Summit in 2021 will consider the issue of returning to "open door policy", including the issue of providing Georgia with a Membership Action Plan (MAP). On February 9, 2021, the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Denys Shmyhal, stated that he hoped that Ukraine would be able to receive an action plan for NATO membership at the same time as Georgia.[97] In response, Alliance Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg confirmed during Prime Minister Shmyhal's visit to Brussels that Ukraine is a candidate for NATO membership.[98]"
Wiki

Doesn't seem to have been a "hard no" anywhere in sight. Afraid to say I think Russia's justifications of the possibility of a hostile military alliance right along their border had some merit. Would the US contemplate Chinese or Russian forces on its Mexico/Canda border? We knew today could come.

EsmaCannonball · 01/03/2022 19:25

The Americans seem to have been saying, rather coyly, for the last few days that they have intelligence that Putin is ill or has actually gone mad.

Cam77 · 01/03/2022 19:25

∆ that last paragraph - not "justifications" I meant protestations

timetochangeusername · 01/03/2022 19:25

Sorry Google reviews are better I think

HighlandCowbag · 01/03/2022 19:26

Thank you for this thread.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 01/03/2022 19:26

Labour has treated the Ukranian refugees as a political football by demanding their unlimited and unvetted acceptance - against the specific advice of the security services

Well, Pritti said they can come if they pick fruit but not near Salisbury

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 01/03/2022 19:27

@EsmaCannonball

The Americans seem to have been saying, rather coyly, for the last few days that they have intelligence that Putin is ill or has actually gone mad.
American intelligence seems to have been spot on so far, so I'm happy with the 'ill' intel.

I look forward to their intel that says he's sadly suffered a stroke.

OvaHere · 01/03/2022 19:28

@EsmaCannonball

The Americans seem to have been saying, rather coyly, for the last few days that they have intelligence that Putin is ill or has actually gone mad.
That doesn't make me feel any better at all.
GrumpyPanda · 01/03/2022 19:28

@DrBlackbird

Ukraine asked to join NATO in 2018. They were told ‘no’. And it doesn’t seem to me that what we’re seeing can be characterised as a ‘flashpoint’.

There have been intense diplomatic efforts with Putin for at least weeks. Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve not heard Putin announce that he’s made x and y demands which haven’t been met.

Except today the Russian foreign minister Lavrov demanded the removal of US nuclear weapons fromEurope. After Putin has threatened all European/Eastern European countries?

Re NATO membership, official policy is still that set at the 2008 Bucharest summit which declared that "Ukraine and Georgia will become members." At the time this was a meager consolation prize - no time scale whatsoever was specified and both countries were turned down for the membership action plans they - and Shrub - had been pushing for. But if you wanted to take offense you would certainly find an excuse here.
reallynowreally · 01/03/2022 19:28

[quote OnlyOpenMouthToChangeFeet]Convoy definitely 40 miles, goes virtually all the way to Belarus border.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-military-convoy-north-kyiv-stretches-40-miles-maxar-2022-03-01/[/quote]
Hey just stepping my toe in the thread...I have been reading this constantly since the first thread and I feel this is so upsetting yet complicated all at the same time.
I have no knowledge of past issues and I have found all you comments very educational...although not all I have to say Hmm
I have respected and welcome everyone's views, the fact they get heated sometimes is a pure example of how different 'the west' and 'others' think, I'm no expert in any of this..not many of us are. But I think it's most important to understand why Putin is doing this. Why? I can't understand why he feels normal people can be collateral damage to prove a point t to other nations it's just crazy. I hope if any of you have family there they are safe plus all the poor reporters that are there, I hear Elon musk has helped with the internet hopefully that's as helpful as it sounds. I hear today the communication sites in Kyiv have been targeted tonight. It's all such a mess 😔

vera99 · 01/03/2022 19:28

If Putin goes it's gonna be one hell of a global party...

Yeahthat · 01/03/2022 19:30

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Please do the whole quote rather than try to paint me as a Tory shill simply because you don't like what I'm saying.

I criticised Davis and Ellwood in the sentence immediately before that. I then criticise Labour for pushing for anyone claiming to be a Ukranian refugee to be allowed in unrestrictedly. That's against the advice of the security services (we don't know what the specific intelligence is, although the possibility of Russia putting spies or terrorists amongst those people was raised in parliament).

Cam77 · 01/03/2022 19:31

Put simply, it seems NATO has been flirting with Ukraine/Russia about the possibility of membership for more than a decade, with a huge acceleration in this since 2014. Russia's protestations were ignored, despite multiple warnings about the dangers of pursuing these high profile NATO-Ukraine meetings, action plans, etc. Great powers value security above all else. Can you imagine the US acquiescing to Chinese troops on its borders?

notimagain · 01/03/2022 19:31

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

So where are the Russian and Ukrainian Surface-to-Air missiles located?

That’s another one of those “you won’t get the answer to that here”…..but SAM systems were generally less mobile in the 60’s and 70’s so the situation now is not quite the same as in 73

The Russians will have tried to eliminate most of the Ukrainian ones that were in fixed positions on minute one of day one, especially in the eastern part of the country, I guess they may have some surviving mobile systems somewhere.

The Russian army formations of any size tend to cart their surface to air missile systems around with them on mobile launchers, so they could be parked anywhere..

And then you’ve got all the manportable SAMS (MANPADS) that the troops on both sides will be wondering around with..

vera99 · 01/03/2022 19:32

Gotta love the Torygraph thankfully I bust their paywall and can read their stuff for free.

The enemy underground: how 'Putin apologists' brought London to a standstill. As a Tube strike causes travel chaos across the capital, we ask: just how close is the RMT union to Putin's Russia?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/01/enemy-underground-putin-apologists-brought-london-standstill/

cakeorwine · 01/03/2022 19:35

I read somewhere about supplies of weapons being built up as hidden dumps, in preparedness for resistance under occupation.

With anti tank weapons, Stinger missile, sniper rifles, IEDs, it's going to make any occupation very hard. Along with the sanctions that will still be there.

FOJN · 01/03/2022 19:35

@vera99

Look like oligarch payoffs of the Tories was good insurance. When the UK announced asset freezes what actually happened is that they are giving them 30 days (!) to move their money out leisurely.

inews.co.uk/news/government-accused-of-absurd-sanctions-loophole-after-giving-russian-bank-customers-30-days-to-wind-down-assets-1490017

'the Treasury unit in charge of enforcing the UK’s sanctions quietly issued a 30-day licence granting permission for any individual or entity to “wind down any transactions” with VTB until 27 March.."

"This is a ridiculous position for Britain to put itself in. An asset freeze needs to be immediate and total. If you are leaving those subject to it a month for the sanction to become active then anything you want to freeze will be long gone. It is absurd.”

I rarely resort to using profanity to insult politicians (I don't feel strongly enough about any of them) but JFC what a bunch of absolute cunts.

How BJ can have the gall to claim we're doing everything we're able to when he's protecting Russian donors interests, fucking arsehole.

I'm going to email my MP tomorrow. I was not as upset about party gate as many were but this has actually made really angry.

MarshaBradyo · 01/03/2022 19:35

Davies and Ellwood have backed establishing a no fly zone (something Biden has ruled out because they simply won't risk escalating to direct military confrontation)

I’m surprised at this, I had thought all were on same page but I need to read up on it and hear more on why the first two think it’s a good idea. Atm feeling grateful to Biden but maybe they have other reasons for believing into wouldn’t escalate things too far.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 01/03/2022 19:39

@Yeahthat I didn't paint you as a Tory shill !

WeQuestionEverything · 01/03/2022 19:40

[quote vera99]@WeQuestionEverything Russia has a policy of using (smaller) tactical nukes without first strike requirements. If they think they are losing then a nuke on Kyiv could be the counterstrike and then what? Is that a gamble you would be prepared to make?[/quote]
Yes.

But you sit on the fence.

letmesleep123 · 01/03/2022 19:41

@AuldAlliance

re. Moldova, there have been various images posted on Twitter of Lucashenko's security meeting today (where he said Ukraine had missiles aimed at Belarus). He showed a map which looks like an invasion map: twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1498673348183744518 and various people have noted that it includes encroachment on Moldova from Transnistria.

Obviously, it is deeply weird that they'd film and make available an accurate map of their exact plans, but stranger things have happened recently, and as part of the information battle, it is kind of interesting. As are the expressions on everyone's faces.
(Also, are that moustache, pointer and map not spookily reminiscent of Chaplin in The Great Dictator?).

@AuldAlliance thank you for the link. I am not sure the heading on Twitter is correct. Looking at the map Lukashenko is pointing to, the pictures of tanks, or whatever they are, seem to be on the small strip of Ukraine, which separates Moldova from the sea. Transnistria is coloured in red though, who knows what that means...

I'd be surprised if Russia goes for it. I hope I am not wrong.