The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

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Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

4 miles long and 40 miles away would make much more sense

I think this might have been posted before but quite a video to watch

Amazing footage from Melitopol of Ukrainians stopping the onward advance of a Russian convoy and chanting “Occupants!” and “Murderers!” The jittery Russians are firing into the air
twitter.com/mjluxmoore/status/1498655849178402820?t=-rbss0HrRIH4QDOh3sgBIQ&s=19

Marking a request

Can people give.small content before link
Eg many news paper are be hind a pay wall.

Or... rather than saying there are other weapons rather than X

Then leaving links. just give small indicated that the types of bomb are

@Cam77

Declare themselves neutral; incorporate them closely into the EU - exclude any membership in a hypothetical future EU military; rule out ever re-developing nuclear weapons.

Ukraine retains its independence and can pursue economic prosperity through the EU.

Putin can present this as a victory - Ukraine demilitarised, NATO expansion checked.

,

Finally caught up with old and new after being at work today.

When Putin first invaded Ukraine, I thought it would be over in 24 hours. Also that after initial shock and outrage, that the world would accept it as the new normal.

Now… I have no idea what to think. It doesn’t seem possible for Ukraine to win a war against Russia. Or even to hold off long enough for wider economic sanctions to convince those around Putin that this is not the best course to keep following.

It is really useful to have this thread as a central point of informative postings.

Does anyone know what Serbia's stance is? Traditionally they're pro-Russian but would have quite a tightrope to balance on?

@TokyoSushi

But isn't it odd that there's 40 miles of military equipment and personnel just sitting there, for what? Why do they feel so secure that nothing will happen to them? Why isn't anything happening to them? It's like they're hiding in plain sight. This convoy has been confusing/bothering me all day.

I assume if somebody else went in with a drone or whatever and wrecked the whole lot, then they'd just retaliate at whoever did it and they'd be fckd? It's like a massive, odd standoff.

I don't claim to know anything at all about war but this seems to be a very strange way of doing things.

I am so full of admiration for the Ukrainian people, if I'm stressed and confused about it, I can even begin to imagine for they feel.

With regard to your second paragraph, I wonder if you saw my post above. I have fought in war (third paragraph) and I know there is often a disconnect between info at strategic, tactical and operational levels. War is messy and confused and it doesn't get better. Opportunities have to be seized and they present themselves accidentally.

We just need to turn that back on Russia and an immediate action on one third of the column might be a game changer.

Convoy definitely 40 miles, goes virtually all the way to Belarus border.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-military-convoy-north-kyiv-stretches-40-miles-maxar-2022-03-01/

The Highway of Death in Iraq in 1991 was a several miles long of a convoy of total destruction as retreating Iraqui forces left Kuwait with their pillaged loot. Reportedly US pilots of Wart Hog helicopter gunships were themselves sickened at the maybe 10s of thousands they slaughtered without any fightback.

If Nato forces were to attack the Russian convoy we would be in WW3 with a Russian leadership committed to using tactical nuclear weapons as a matter of policy, not a last resort. We stand with Ukraine in every possible respect except we cannot and will not engage military directly with Russian forces. Not unless we wish on mass destruction in Europe and possibly beyond if that was to happen then a truly unimaginable nightmare will have begun.

@parafirstjoint

Apologies for asking as I assume this will possibly have been asked earlier today.

The 40 mile convoy of Russians, why aren’t drones taking the lot of them out or at least damaging as much ground in front of them to make it impossible to reach Kyiv?

Given how long the convoy has been there and how well advertised it is the working assumption has to that be the Ukrainian’s haven’t got the capability to attack it from the air.

I’m pretty sure (but not 100%) that they don’t have any drones capable of carrying a serious amount of munitions and we don’t really know the state of their Air Force.

Declare themselves neutral; incorporate them closely into the EU - exclude any membership in a hypothetical future EU military; rule out ever re-developing nuclear weapons

Ukraine retains its independence and can pursue economic prosperity through the EU

Putin can present this as a victory - Ukraine demilitarised, NATO expansion checked

This is the ideal outcome. But still the senseless loss of life for both sides continues..

I definitely think there is a misinformation war on social going on with definitely Russians I mean they made all the troll farms for trump I'm assuming they r now all pro russia , I mean Carole so say it started years ago so just continuation.

Carole the british journalist who has made twitter thead about it that's been quoted on here multiple times

@TokyoSushi
Why do they feel so secure that nothing will happen to them?
Because this is so far a skirmish between Russia and its (perceived) naughty neighbour who has been flirting with NATO. If NATO or anyone else would launch a full on airstrike like that against Russian troops it would likely cause a full on war with untold deaths. And if Putin is the madman that many are claiming, possibly nuclear war.

@TokyoSushi

4 miles long and 40 miles away would make much more sense

Canadian news saying it’s over 60km long

@DrBlackbird

Declare themselves neutral; incorporate them closely into the EU - exclude any membership in a hypothetical future EU military; rule out ever re-developing nuclear weapons

Ukraine retains its independence and can pursue economic prosperity through the EU

Putin can present this as a victory - Ukraine demilitarised, NATO expansion checked

This is the ideal outcome. But still the senseless loss of life for both sides continues..

And the question will also remain whether such an agreement could have been reached without the senseless destruction of Ukraine, of lives, and of futures.

Again - Russia's actions are evil, they're illegal, and they cannot be accepted by the international community. But there were warnings from everyone from George Kennan to John Mearsheimer, going back decades, that NATO expansion would ultimately turn Ukraine into a flash point and end badly.

@MumbleCrumbs

I honestly think he'll go for Moldova next. I don't know what the answer is but it surely cannot be "let him take whatever he wants as long as it's not a nato country so we don't get nuked". This will end up in a wider conflict eventually.

That's an interesting point and I have been wondering the same, especially considering the Transnistrian situation. Moldova, however, has been navigating very carefully, unlike the Ukraine. Their current president is an experienced politician (unlike Zelensky) and managed to keep Moldova reasonably neutral politically. They are really not pro- Russia, but managed to not provoke Russia either. They avoided the hard-line approach of Zelensky by being more lenient towards the Russian speaking minority etc. According to Maia Sandu (the president) there is nothing to suggest escalation around Moldovan borders. They seem more concerned about the overwhelming numbers of refugees than the political threat.

[quote vera99]The Highway of Death in Iraq in 1991 was a several miles long of a convoy of total destruction as retreating Iraqui forces left Kuwait with their pillaged loot. Reportedly US pilots of Wart Hog helicopter gunships were themselves sickened at the maybe 10s of thousands they slaughtered without any fightback.

If Nato forces were to attack the Russian convoy we would be in WW3 with a Russian leadership committed to using tactical nuclear weapons as a matter of policy, not a last resort. We stand with Ukraine in every possible respect except we cannot and will not engage military directly with Russian forces. Not unless we wish on mass destruction in Europe and possibly beyond if that was to happen then a truly unimaginable nightmare will have begun.

[/quote] @vera99

The action in 1991 was potentially a war crime. Overwhelming force used against an army in retreat. It was never a Belgrano moment.

What we are seeing today is very different. What matters is whether you believe Russia will use nuclear weapons or not. If you do not, then logically engaging an invading army when you are in a position to defeat them to avoid materially worse outcomes for the West in the long term is a decision you would make.

Look like oligarch payoffs of the Tories was good insurance. When the UK announced asset freezes what actually happened is that they are giving them 30 days (!) to move their money out leisurely.

inews.co.uk/news/government-accused-of-absurd-sanctions-loophole-after-giving-russian-bank-customers-30-days-to-wind-down-assets-1490017

'the Treasury unit in charge of enforcing the UK’s sanctions quietly issued a 30-day licence granting permission for any individual or entity to “wind down any transactions” with VTB until 27 March.."

"This is a ridiculous position for Britain to put itself in. An asset freeze needs to be immediate and total. If you are leaving those subject to it a month for the sanction to become active then anything you want to freeze will be long gone. It is absurd.”

@Vera99

Reportedly US pilots of Wart Hog helicopter gunships..

“Warthog” was the colloquial name for the A-10 Thunderbolt II which most definitely was not a helicopter.

@vera99
We stand with Ukraine in every possible respect except we cannot and will not engage military directly with Russian forces.

That being the case surely the more decent thing to do is push Ukraine into a truce with Russia and declaring itself neutral and outside of NATO and full EU membership. Also with a huge financial package for the rebuild and general compensation. Arming the Ukrainians for a war they cannot win, will suffer huge devastation from and one which WE cannot and will not fight seems wrong to me. It seems a bit like the EU wanting their cake and eating it to me. If you want to fight fight. If you want to make peace then urge that scenario instead. But of course that would mean resigning Ukraine will never be part of NATO/possibly full EU member ...

@parafirstjoint

Apologies for asking as I assume this will possibly have been asked earlier today.

The 40 mile convoy of Russians, why aren’t drones taking the lot of them out or at least damaging as much ground in front of them to make it impossible to reach Kyiv?

This is what DH is saying.

Those tanks are sitting ducks. NATO dare not bomb them with airstrikes as that would be the start of World War III. Which Putin would then claim was started by NATO.

@Viviennemary

Those tanks are sitting ducks. NATO dare not bomb them with airstrikes as that would be the start of World War III. Which Putin would then claim was started by NATO.

Yes agree with this