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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
DuncinToffee · 02/03/2022 14:40

How worrying for you all 2March2022 Sad

KaparaOnYou · 02/03/2022 14:40

@Muminabun

I don’t think this war is winnable for Russia. Russia have endless supplies of soldiers, albeit inexperienced and with low motivation but nonetheless a pretty endless supply. They also have lots of hardware ( albeit notoriously crap russian made junk) but again lots of it. Putin is a mad old dictator so we have all seen this before.

Ukraine have a very committed, young, educated population. They have supplies and support from neighbouring countries which will help with sustaining them and with morale. They are motivated and supported in the country. Old ladies and school teachers making Molotov cocktails. They are winning a culture and media war which will keep the aid and military and non military supplies rolling in.

My point is that this could go on for years. Both sides can keep fighting. Look at Northern Ireland it went on for 30 years and was appalling and urban and horrific. Russia has numbers but so does Ukraine. 180,000 of their civilians are Newley armed, they are 44m strong. It will not be possible for Russia to crush Ukrainian resistance.

Sadly I look at what the Russians did to Grozny, to their own citizens, and this might be their 'win'
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/03/2022 14:43

The Americans are going to have to get further involved.

What good will come out of this?

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 14:43

@Muminabun Russia will not fight with one hand behind its back, its h/w isn't crap at all.

They will use the tactics they have have used before in Syria and Grozny.

Biden has made it very clear he will not get involved, he and Bojo can spout on about Ukrainian spirit, resolve and we stand with you BS but within months millions will be dead.

Muminabun · 02/03/2022 14:44

@Alexandra2001

American conservative news had a discussion about this yesterday. Their take was that if America gets involved then Russia will have to use nuclear weapons as America has superior army power so if the situation is to be resolved without major loss of life then basically it means a brokered agreement that no side is going to like or will be satisfied with as you can imagine.

CallyfromBlakes7 · 02/03/2022 14:46

@DGRossetti

Looking at our own youth, I would be totally unsurprised to learn Russian kids can't read maps either. Leaving them reliant on hackable tech (and bear a thought for what's not being reported that's going on in cyberspace) and misdirection from mischievous parties.

Which does make you wonder why the most accurate maps of the UK are Russian Soviet-era ones. Which showed inside a lot of military bases the OS maps just had as blank boxes. Plus details of river depths and tides that aren't usually published.

Not just our youth - all the people who rely on satnav and don't know where places are even generally. I was a bit surprised when they said some of the Russian soldiers didn't know they were in Ukraine - I thought place names? Are road signs the same? If you crossed from France into Belgium or Germany into Austria or indeed Northern Ireland into the Republic, you'd be alerted by road signs that you had crossed the border, even if you walked across a field and not a border post.

As for the maps of the UK military bases - I spend many fun-filled hours on the National Library of Scotland "side by side" map website where you can compare places now with various times in the past. It is interesting that Farnborough (Hampshire) airfield is never shown, it's just an area of heathland. Even though the various barracks in the area, some of which are now longer there, are shown!

DGRossetti · 02/03/2022 14:47

Look at Northern Ireland it went on for 30 years and was appalling and urban and horrific.

Well that was mainly the dishonesty and hypocrisy of the UK government.

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 14:48

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

The Americans are going to have to get further involved.

What good will come out of this?

The decision to get more involved or stand back and watch genocide is getting ever closer. Once the Russians take Ukraine, do you think they wont extract revenge on the defenders? as they did to the Germans they "liberated" in WW2.
ScatteredMama82 · 02/03/2022 14:48

I just watched the Mariupol report on ITV news. That wee girl, oh my god. Someone needs to shoot Putin and be done with this.

CaveMum · 02/03/2022 14:48

There’s an F15 doing laps over my head and another USAF tanker getting ready to take off from Mildenhall according to FlightRadar24

DuncinToffee · 02/03/2022 14:48

From the BBC live blog

Russian primary school children detained for anti-war protest
Gabriel Gatehouse
BBC Newsnight
When I saw reports and photographs on Tuesday suggesting that primary school children had been arrested by police in Moscow for laying flowers at the Ukrainian embassy and holding signs saying “No to war” I refused to believe it was real.

But now it has been confirmed by the Nobel prize-winning newspaper Novaya Gazeta. In an update the newspaper says the children have since been released.

The images show the children with officers behind metal bars, perhaps in a police vehicle, and then in a police station, holding their flowers and placards.

The Kremlin appears to be taking increasingly draconian measures to try to keep a grip on its war narrative.

Muminabun · 02/03/2022 14:50

[quote Alexandra2001]@Muminabun Russia will not fight with one hand behind its back, its h/w isn't crap at all.

They will use the tactics they have have used before in Syria and Grozny.

Biden has made it very clear he will not get involved, he and Bojo can spout on about Ukrainian spirit, resolve and we stand with you BS but within months millions will be dead.[/quote]
Do you think we are then looking at Ukraine being brutally swallowed by Russia and then a division of Russia China and other countries like Pakistan, North Korea and others on one side and the west nato etc on the other. Will Ukraine lead to a new world order as some sort of new Cold War. That sounds awful and what will it mean for us all. What will the outcome of all of this be and how will that look for all of us?

DGRossetti · 02/03/2022 14:51

Not just our youth - all the people who rely on satnav and don't know where places are even generally.

In the past 6 months I've had two assistants (19 years old kickstarters) both born in Brum who know less about where places in the city are than I do.

Mind you MiLs partner managed to go 35 miles the wrong way on the M6 once, following a sat nav.

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 14:51

@Muminabun

Why would the aggressor seek a negotiated settlement when he is winning? Did Assad?

Putin will carry on until he has what he wants.

ClingClingDin · 02/03/2022 14:53

The decision to get more involved or stand back and watch genocide is getting ever closer. Once the Russians take Ukraine, do you think they wont extract revenge on the defenders? as they did to the Germans they "liberated" in WW2.

Horribly, now there are Ukrainians dying and suffering, if the US get involved, it will be Ukrainians dying and suffering along with possibly the rest of the globe.

jgw1 · 02/03/2022 14:54

[quote Muminabun]@Alexandra2001

American conservative news had a discussion about this yesterday. Their take was that if America gets involved then Russia will have to use nuclear weapons as America has superior army power so if the situation is to be resolved without major loss of life then basically it means a brokered agreement that no side is going to like or will be satisfied with as you can imagine.[/quote]
Would Putin settle for having a land corridor through Mariopol and other cities between Crimea and Russia?
Not that there appears to be much point in holding Mariopol given how much it has been bombarded.

Would the rest of the Ukraine settle for losing for the foreseeable future some eastern parts of their country?

I have a suspicion that in the event of a ceasefire the western side of Ukraine will be rebuilt rapidly with aid from all over the place and that in Russian hands will languish behind. Would they at some point reunite? Korea hasn't.

LizDoingTheCanCan · 02/03/2022 14:54

@ScatteredMama82

I just watched the Mariupol report on ITV news. That wee girl, oh my god. Someone needs to shoot Putin and be done with this.
It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. This horror is more than one man.
tearsforfears72 · 02/03/2022 14:54

Checking in. Thank you for the very informative thread; DH and I have been trying to keep updated mostly through BBC News and verified Twitter feeds from Ukrainians, journalists etc.
This is beyond horrifying, and like previous posters have said, if it doesn’t stop then millions of people are going to be dead. Just hearing about today’s attack in Mariupol…hundreds of civilians probably killed.
If anybody has practical advice about how we can help as UK citizens then please put it in the thread. We’ve made up some bags of our and the DCs clothes to take to a refugee drop off point - they’ll then be given to a trucker who is driving to Poland. But everything we do here, sat comfortably and safely in the west, feels so ineffective against Putin and his regime of terror. I’m hoping for peace and I’m so sorry to anyone, Ukrainian and anti-war Russian, who’s personally affected by this.

Muminabun · 02/03/2022 14:55

[quote Alexandra2001]@Muminabun

Why would the aggressor seek a negotiated settlement when he is winning? Did Assad?

Putin will carry on until he has what he wants.[/quote]
Will ongoing sanctions make a difference do you think?

jgw1 · 02/03/2022 14:55

[quote Alexandra2001]@Muminabun

Why would the aggressor seek a negotiated settlement when he is winning? Did Assad?

Putin will carry on until he has what he wants.[/quote]
Is Putin winning?

They seem to be throwing their best troops at some of the southern and eastern cities, whilst the attack on Kyiv seems to be largely stalled - perhaps because the column is a largely conscript one?

Thereisnolight · 02/03/2022 14:56

DD has to do a school project on a strong woman and chose Florence nightingale. She was astonished to read about the Crimean War. “Is this still going on 170 years later?”

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 14:56

Do you think we are then looking at Ukraine being brutally swallowed by Russia and then a division of Russia China and other countries like Pakistan, North Korea and others on one side and the west nato etc on the other. Will Ukraine lead to a new world order as some sort of new Cold War. That sounds awful and what will it mean for us all. What will the outcome of all of this be and how will that look for all of us?

Perhaps, though i do not feel China will take sides, they need eco growth to keep their vast country together.

I think Ukraine will be partitioned, and a new cold war, the millions killed and us standing by will be justified by "well better than WW3"

The problem with this is that the Russians will know that they can come back for more of the old USSR safe in the knowledge we will shy away from conflict.

FOJN · 02/03/2022 14:57

@FOJN Can we please move on from this shite? no one gives a 4X about your spats DM each other if it bothers you.

I have no idea what this is about. Please feel free to ignore it if sharing a joke with another poster bothers you. When you have to post to let me know you don't give a shit it suggests you probably do. Please wind your neck in.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/03/2022 14:57

The decision to get more involved or stand back and watch genocide is getting ever closer.
Once the Russians take Ukraine, do you think they wont extract revenge on the defenders? as they did to the Germans they "liberated" in WW2.

They can't hold it. They might have been able to hold the separatist' republics, but this?

Still, once NATO gets involved all bets are off.

This is what's baffling, Putin ether totally miscalculated the sympathies they hoped to get once there, or he has something else in mind. Then again, he couldn't possible have hoped to find support in Kiev.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 14:57

Fascinating historic comparison:

Janne M. Korhonen 🇫🇮🇪🇺🐟🇺🇦@jmkorhonen
What strikes me in the Kremlin's invasion of Ukraine are the similarities to the Winter War (1939-40) against Finland. However, I'm afraid the end result could be similar as well - but it doesn't need to be. A THREAD.

It now seems blindingly obvious that just as in 1939, the yes-men and sycophants in the Kremlin told their master he wanted to hear. "An invasion will be a cakewalk." "The locals will greet us as liberators." "Our mighty army will take the capital in days."

Stalin even told the world, and his people, that this was no war but a limited police action.

Stalin believed he will be in Helsinki in two weeks. (We're still waiting.)

Stalin's henchman even commissioned a musical piece from famed composer Shostakovich, the Suite on Finnish Themes, to be performed by the marching bands of the Red Army parading through Helsinki.

In comparison, Putin's lackeys expecting rapid fall of Kiyv wrote... a blog post.

Russia indeed is no Soviet Union.

Stalin was told that Finland is deeply divided and the working men would not fight for the bourgeois government. What happened was that even middle-aged men who had fought for the Red Guards in the 1918 civil war, and oppressed afterwards, volunteered en masse for the front.

Just like today in Ukraine, in 1939 the Kremlin wanted to change the Finnish government and install a puppet regime.

A puppet government, known as the Terijoki government and consisting of exiled Finnish communists, was announced. The Kremlin announced it the "lawful" government of Finland that had "asked" for "help."

After a manufactured pretext, the so-called Shots of Mainila, the invasion began on the 30th November 1939. The initial Soviet advance was a shambolic mess. Some units advanced with the marching band in front, fully expecting applauses and not murderingly accurate rifle fire.

Some of the units did not even know where they were. For example, the - ironically - Ukrainian 44th Division, mostly farmers and city boys, had been shipped from Poland to the border, to the middle of primeval forest, and few had any idea what they were doing there.

Many units were not even issued with winter clothing and snow camoflage was nonexistent. In their greenish brown coats, they stood against the snow like targets they were.

Stalin's purges had eliminated almost all actually competent officers from the Red Army. Those who remained knew little more than to push the mass of men and material forward, against waiting Finnish machine guns.

Some Finnish machine gunners reportedly went insane from the carnage they inflicted. In places, defenders literally sheltered behind mounds of frozen Soviet corpses.

In the north, the overconfident, tactically inept Soviets managed to surprise the defenders, who had not believed the few puny roads cutting into the primeval forest could support an attack. As a result, columns of Soviets poured deep inside Finland before they were stopped.

Just like today, the Kremlin's forces controlled only the roads, however. Outside the roads, they froze and died. When Finnish forces managed to cut off the roads behind them, they froze, starved, and died.

Unfortunately, the Kremlin had only been humiliated, not defeated. After the initial assault went nowhere, the sycophants who had promised a quick victory were removed and actually competent officers put in charge. They devised a methodical plan to steamroll the Finnish defences.

The Red Army was quick to learn its lessons. The army went back to the basics, regrouped and reinforced, and even trained the assault in advance. Massive artillery concentration was prepared, and the Finnish defenders worn out with bombardment and small scale attacks.

In February 1st, the assault renewed. Tactics had been improved: for instance, tanks and infantry now actually cooperated, making anti-tank defense much more difficult. And firepower was used far more liberally.

After a 10-day round-the-clock artillery barrage, the Soviet forces achieved a breakthrough in the Karelian Isthmus on the 11th February 1940.

At this point, Finnish defenders were outnumbered three to one, and sorely lacking in weapons and ammunition. Initial successes and censorship of Finnish losses had lulled many people into a state of complacency, which may also have slowed down foreign aid.

On 15 February, Finnish forces began a general retreat to a fallback line in the Karelian Isthmus. They were still inflicting disproportionate casualties to the attacking Soviets, but the Red Army just kept on coming, and Finnish defenders and their reserves were exhausted.

On 5 March, the Soviet forces entered the suburbs of Karelian "capital" Viipuri (Vyborg), the 4th largest Finnish city, and established a beachhead on the Western Gulf of Vyborg. At this point, the last Finnish reserves consisted of teenagers and older men.

On 12 March, the Moscow Peace Treaty was signed. Finland lost the war, but retained her independence. The puppet Terijoki government did not take power, as Stalin had planned. But Finland lost Karelia, and 11-12% of all Finns lost their homes.

(The people in occupied areas were given a choice to stay if they wanted. Something like a dozen stayed, about 420 000 chose to become refugees instead.)

I'm afraid a similar story may yet unfold in Ukraine. Ukrainians are not telling about their own losses, and the Kremlin still has very powerful forces arrayed against the Ukrainian defenders.

The Kremlin's initial assault has now stalled. Just as in the Winter War, the Kremlin is in desperation resorting to increasing use of firepower to destroy the defenders, caring little about civilian (or its own) casualties.

The Ukrainians have inflicted horrendous casualties upon their enemy, and fought with amazing determination and bravery. Finnish veterans have already congratulated them. But so far even optimistic accounts suggest the Kremlin's invasion force has suffered only about 5 % losses.

If the Kremlin's forces now learn their lesson, they may yet manage to steamroll the Ukrainians. They will suffer casualties, but they may have enough power to prevail.

On the other hand, the odds against the Ukrainians are not as bad as the odds against Finland were in the Winter War. Ukraine has 11 times the population of Winter War Finland, and the armed forces are roughly equal in number to the Kremlin's invasion force.

Ukraine is also receiving foreign support much more forcefully than what Finland received during the Winter War. Finnish defences would have withstood much better if Finns had had more anti-tank weapons; these are now being delivered in encouraging if still limited numbers.

Most importantly, the morale of the Russian troops seems to be awful. In war, morale is famously to material as three is to one. Russian forces are abandoning the fight in large numbers, and leaving even high tech equipment to the Ukrainians.

Even at the Russian home front, the situation does not look rosy. Even though information supply is tightly controlled, Russians have far better means of gathering accurate information than they had in 1939, and international sanctions are infinitely more biting.

Finally, in modern war logistics are even more important than in 1939. From all accounts, it seems the Russian forces did not have good enough logistics "tail" even to serve the forces in their jump-off positions before the invasion. It's even harder now.

In the absence of proper logistics, the Kremlin's vast hordes are far less dangerous than mere numbers suggest. As someone noted, a 40-km long column of military vehicles that isn't moving is not an army but a traffic jam.

If logistics do not work, the Kremlin's forces that are still unengaged can fight with whatever ammunition and fuel supplies they can carry - and the latter are already depleted, because simply keeping the vehicles operational consumes fuel every day.

In short, much of the rest of the Kremlin's troops may to be a glass cannon: it may hit once very powerfully, but will crumble soon afterwards.

Will the Ukrainians withstand this blow? I hope so.

Some have suggested the Kremlin has not even committed its best troops yet. To me, this seems implausible. Their elite enforcers, the airborne troops of the VDV, have now been committed en masse, and failed to make much headway.

The supposedly crack Kantemirovskaya or 4th Guards Tank Division has also seen combat, and, amazingly, lost even high level command vehicles and their contents without much of a fight or even an attempt to destroy valuable documents.

Some tanks have been lost with their guns still fixed on transport supports, that is, without firing a shot at the Ukrainians. Even extremely valuable surface to air missile systems have been simply abandoned.

Unbelievably, the Russian forces are even communicating using commercially available, unencrypted radios, as radio amateurs around the world have noticed. This was a bad idea in 1914 - see the battle of Tannenberg - and it's suicidal today.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg

All this points to a conclusion: the Kremlin not only misjudged the Ukrainians, but its beliefs about its own army were also seriously in error, probably due to endemic corruption. Sun Tzu says: "If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

So I remain reservedly optimistic. The Kremlin is probably even now firing the most incompetent officers and trying to find competent ones, but it's not clear who they would be. In an autocracy, competence is a threat.

It's not clear how much even competent leadership could do to improve the morale of the Russian soldiers in Ukraine, although as they take losses, they will inevitably become angrier. We will probably see how this plays out in the coming days.

Meanwhile, foreign aid continues to pour into Ukraine, and the morale of the Ukrainian defenders remains high. If they can avoid exhaustion, they can continue to maul the invaders.

If the Ukrainians can avoid defeat, it seems to me quite likely that the Kremlin will have to settle for some face saving "win" before torches and pitchforks begin to mass in the Red Square.

Perhaps the Ukrainians will have to allow this.

In the end, it's far too early to say how this war will end, and when. By now it's clear the Kremlin is not going to win this war even if it wins the coming battles, and Ukraine will definitely win the peace.

But Ukraine too can still lose the war, and many battles. Let's continue to support them so that they won't.