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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
ClaudineClare · 02/03/2022 14:02

[quote Alexandra2001]@Clavinova ..... and? 1000s are dying in Ukraine.

i do seem to recall you poking Germany on their reluctance not to cancel NS2 but now we must favour a key Putin ally because a foot club might go bust....[/quote]
Quite. In the greater scheme of things who cares if a football team goes bust? It can rebuild far more easily than Ukraine can.

I hope posters aren't going to start cut and paste derails on this thread.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 14:04

Iyad el-Baghdadi @iyadelbaghdadi
(He is a liberal Islamic political analysist based in Europe who looks at politics from a more non-western pov. This is in answer to a question posed by someone else)

I am not an IR scholar and I feel like a bit of a jerk even answering this, given it's addressed to people far more knowledgeable than me, but I'll bite (apologies in advance):

I used to think Russia is heading to be one of those "poles" of a multipolar world, a great power. Now I think that Russia has already lost "Cold War II", and that long-term it's heading towards either integrating with Europe, or becoming a Chinese vassal

I also used to think that Europe has a Russia problem. I don't think that's necessarily true, Europe has a Putin problem, but except for nukes, Russia is just no match for "the West", and Russia has no prospects on the horizon to reverse this or bridge the gap.

And I must admit, at some point my mind drifted towards the connection between leadership & grievance. Putin is weaponizing 30 years of grievance, throwing whatever power he has onto the battlefield. But ultimately (beyond military/gas/nukes) he has little power...

But China has 100+ years of grievance (it even calls it "the century of humiliation"), and it has a lot more power. So far, it hasn't chosen to throw all of its accumulated power onto a battlefield. But what if China finds its own Putin?

The meaning of power has diversified a lot over the past century. It used to mean gold, guns, and men. Now it's so much more. Russia has no Silicon Valley, it has no Hollywood, it has no Wall Street, it has no EU. But Putin still has a 19th century understanding of "power"...

Going off on a tangent (but also closing the thread): I'm immensely frustrated by people who do not understand this diversification of power and continue to think that power = weapons. Is weapons a form of power? Yes. Is it all of power? Not even close. Not even nearly close.

minsmum · 02/03/2022 14:05

Unverified source on Twitter says that NS2 is filing for bankruptcy

OnlyOpenMouthToChangeFeet · 02/03/2022 14:09

Russian delegation came to the city of Konotop to negotiate a surrender, effectively said that the city would be destroyed in the fighting otherwise.

Seems they don't have enough army to go around!

twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498955188811583492?s=20&t=fgwW1oo5zPyCsyRA5eFffg

Also read earlier today (was very legitimate news source ,though now eludes me), that using Russian conscripts in live conflict is illegal, and they were being forced to sign contracts. Will post link if I manage to track it down.

Damnloginpopup · 02/03/2022 14:09

Abramovic is fucked. I'd have bought Chelsea but he's russian so I'm not allowed to 😁

OP posts:
StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 02/03/2022 14:09

[quote Clavinova]He has Chelsea up for sale for £4bn

Finance experts have warned that Chelsea could face going out of business if the government sanctions Roman Abramovich...

Kieran Maguire, a football finance lecturer at Liverpool University, told The Times: ‘If he feels he is being made a scapegoat for the activities of Putin then the worst-case scenario is he tries to call in the [£1.5billion] loan [to Chelsea]'

'...He and Putin could argue that it is the British government that has destroyed Chelsea Football Club.’

Dr Rob Wilson, a finance lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University, has similar concerns, saying: ‘If the government do seize the assets, in which case they seize Chelsea, that is probably for him a bit of a final straw.

metro.co.uk/2022/02/26/chelsea-could-go-bust-if-roman-abramovich-is-sanctioned-16179592/[/quote]
I don't really care.

TonTonMacoute · 02/03/2022 14:09

My DS was at school with this young man. He is 22, and he has been working as a journalist in Kyiv, initially fled west and has now just been conscripted.

This is his Twitter feed for anyone interested

Max

ClaudineClare · 02/03/2022 14:10

@minsmum

Unverified source on Twitter says that NS2 is filing for bankruptcy
A few news outlets are reporting it, so looks to be true?

www.newsweek.com/nord-stream-2-pipeline-owner-files-bankruptcy-releases-workforce-1683820

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 02/03/2022 14:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

SueSaid · 02/03/2022 14:12

'Quite. In the greater scheme of things who cares if a football team goes bust? It can rebuild far more easily than Ukraine can.'

Totally agree in the scheme of things if is small fry and privileged overpaid footballers can soon work elsewhere. It would give out the right message that there will not be any concessions just because an oligarch happens to own an English football club.

OnlyOpenMouthToChangeFeet · 02/03/2022 14:12

Details re Nord Stream 2 bankruptcy.

www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/nord-stream-2-files-for-bankruptcy-fires-employees/

DuncinToffee · 02/03/2022 14:12

Mariupol

twitter.com/joelmgunter/status/1499016901963440128?s=21

Horrible conversation with the deputy mayor of Mariupol. Says residential areas heavily bombed, including his father's neighbourhood.
"The situation is awful, we are near to a humanitarian catastrophe. We have been under more than 15 hours of continuous shelling without pause."
“One district of the city is nearly totally destroyed ... We cannot count the number of victims there but we believe at least hundreds of people are dead. We cannot go in to retrieve the bodies. My father lives there, I cannot reach him, I don't know if he is alive or dead."
“The Russian forces are several kilometres away on all sides. The Ukrainian army is brave and they will continue to defend the city, but Russia does not fight with their army, they just destroy districts.
“We believe in our Ukrainian army, but we are in a terrible situation.”

KatRee · 02/03/2022 14:13

Thanks for sharing the essay earlier @FOJN - fascinating just how entrenched in the past Putin. Never thought we'd see anything like this in Europe in 2022. The parallels with Hitler are at once chilling and bizarre. I feel like myself and many others have been extremely naive and blissfully ignorant

Clavinova · 02/03/2022 14:14

StrychnineInTheSandwiches

If you don't like my cut and paste why did you copy the whole section for such a short reply?

ClaudineClare · 02/03/2022 14:17

StrychnineInTheSandwiches don't bite is my advice.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/03/2022 14:17

It is true about Nord Stream.

They are bankrupt and all the employees are let go.

www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/pipeline-projekt-nord-stream-2-die-neusten-entwicklungen-ld.1483495

Postdatedpandemic · 02/03/2022 14:18

Interesting to see the responses of other countries. South Africa is not taking sides. But they would like their citizens to be allowed out of Ukraine.

www.dirco.gov.za/docs/2022/unga0301.htm

ClingClingDin · 02/03/2022 14:19

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Sorry, Alexandra, I'm utterly lost.

I still cannot comprehend any of this.

There is some harrowing footage Mariupol Sad Angry

I won't link to the ITV article as too graphic but here is an extract

"Show this to Putin," a doctor tells the camera. "The eyes of this child, and crying doctors."

--
The medic and his colleagues tried tirelessly to save the life of the six-year-old girl injured by Russian shelling in Mariupol. They were unable to do so.

Her mother sat alone in a corridor outside, sorting the few belongings thrown together as the family raced to the hospital.

The child's father was rushed into ICU too, injured in the same shelling.

Russia claims it is not targeting civilians in Mariupol. For this family and many more, that is hard to believe.

Harrowing.

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 02/03/2022 14:21

@ClaudineClare

StrychnineInTheSandwiches don't bite is my advice.
Noted Smile
Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 14:29

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Sorry, Alexandra, I'm utterly lost.

I still cannot comprehend any of this.

You n me both!

We are witnessing mass murder in the centre of Europe that is going to get far worse, some Soviet era General said he would turn a Ukrainian city into another Stalingrad.

My hatred for Putin and his generals/soldiers ... i can't express it, they are monsters, out of 1940s Europe.

The Americans are going to have to get further involved.

MarshaBradyo · 02/03/2022 14:31

@DuncinToffee

Mariupol

twitter.com/joelmgunter/status/1499016901963440128?s=21

Horrible conversation with the deputy mayor of Mariupol. Says residential areas heavily bombed, including his father's neighbourhood.
"The situation is awful, we are near to a humanitarian catastrophe. We have been under more than 15 hours of continuous shelling without pause."
“One district of the city is nearly totally destroyed ... We cannot count the number of victims there but we believe at least hundreds of people are dead. We cannot go in to retrieve the bodies. My father lives there, I cannot reach him, I don't know if he is alive or dead."
“The Russian forces are several kilometres away on all sides. The Ukrainian army is brave and they will continue to defend the city, but Russia does not fight with their army, they just destroy districts.
“We believe in our Ukrainian army, but we are in a terrible situation.”

Poor people Sad just awful
Muminabun · 02/03/2022 14:32

I don’t think this war is winnable for Russia. Russia have endless supplies of soldiers, albeit inexperienced and with low motivation but nonetheless a pretty endless supply. They also have lots of hardware ( albeit notoriously crap russian made junk) but again lots of it. Putin is a mad old dictator so we have all seen this before.

Ukraine have a very committed, young, educated population. They have supplies and support from neighbouring countries which will help with sustaining them and with morale. They are motivated and supported in the country. Old ladies and school teachers making Molotov cocktails. They are winning a culture and media war which will keep the aid and military and non military supplies rolling in.

My point is that this could go on for years. Both sides can keep fighting. Look at Northern Ireland it went on for 30 years and was appalling and urban and horrific. Russia has numbers but so does Ukraine. 180,000 of their civilians are Newley armed, they are 44m strong. It will not be possible for Russia to crush Ukrainian resistance.

2March2022 · 02/03/2022 14:36

NC for this, have been mainly lurking on these threads. I suspect it won’t mean much since I’m not verifiable but fwiw - DH is from a Russian army family, BIL is in service. We’ve had news from his parents that BIL has been told that any communication at all (presumably with family, friends etc) about current operations or losses will be treated as treasonous and tried accordingly. BIL has decided it’s safer not to speak to parents or brothers for the moment.

Muminabun · 02/03/2022 14:40

@2March2022

NC for this, have been mainly lurking on these threads. I suspect it won’t mean much since I’m not verifiable but fwiw - DH is from a Russian army family, BIL is in service. We’ve had news from his parents that BIL has been told that any communication at all (presumably with family, friends etc) about current operations or losses will be treated as treasonous and tried accordingly. BIL has decided it’s safer not to speak to parents or brothers for the moment.
Bloody hell. Sorry to hear this and I hope he is safe and remains safe. Putin has been very clear that treason is never forgiven or forgotten. Of course his definition of treason meaning questioning, disagreement, mild agitation etc….
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