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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
WeAreTheHeroes · 02/03/2022 07:44

We've had stability for such a long time in Europe relatively speaking that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a truly shocking event.

It's very hard to square what is happening to people you feel are just like us with lives like ours with what is being inflicted on Ukraine, it's so very close to home in several ways.

I feel that carrying on as normal as much as possible is the best way to keep going. You can't live in fear and being cowed by this gives Putin what he wants.

Throughout these hideous events there are many reminders daily of the best of humanity: the Polish people taking in Ukrainian refugees with such compassion, people all over Europe sending supplies to help Ukrainians, the Ukrainian communities around the world standing in support of their countrypeople. There are things you can do to contribute and if you are struggling not only will be helping the Ukrainians being directly affected by this, but it could help you too.

Peregrina · 02/03/2022 07:45

Also, on the subject of escalation/de-escalation - that the US and Europe appear to have chosen a path of escalation (or at least, not chosen a path of de-escalation) means they must believe there is something they can achieve by following that path.

Maybe they think so, but that might be wishful thinking having just been routed from Afghanistan.

OMG12 · 02/03/2022 07:47

@strawberriesarenot

I have followed these threads and learnt a lot but to simplify: The West can't help Ukraine because Russia threatens to use nuclear weapons? Which could end everything. A risk we cannot take. But that means Putin could threaten us again. He could, and I guess will, say, 'Lift sanctions, we have nuclear weapons,' and we would have to do. He could say, 'Give me Europe, the Queen as hostage, give me the US, we have nuclear weapons' and what could we do but agree to his demands, since Russia' s honour is already gone. They've proved they can't be trusted. What is the end of this? After Ukraine has proved his methods work so well?
My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war.

Our biggest hope really is that someone puts a bullet in Putins head and I reckon that would happen if he seriously tried to push the button. No one in their right mind (and it seems increasingly clear putin is not) would basically destroy the world which is what would most likely happen.

Wannago · 02/03/2022 07:48

Article from the New York Times suggesting that the Chinese public opinion is very much pro Russia:

www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/business/china-russia-ukraine-invasion.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

DrBlackbird · 02/03/2022 07:49

If this is what’s being reported in govt sanctioned Russia media, then seeing it repeated here makes it all that more suspect.

"What you see in Ukraine is the result of the West's actions"
"The EU is acting like an enemy"

This sentiment - that NATO forced Russia to act - has all the hallmark of an angry controlling man absolving himself of any blame because his wife drove him to violence against her.

Why not seek an explanation for NATO’s westward expansion and argue that ‘if only Russia/Putin had not been an aggressive, unstable neighbour then none of the Eastern European countries would have asked to join NATO’.

Damnloginpopup · 02/03/2022 07:49

The keyword in regards to the sas and paras in my post is ex. They are the backbone of 'private military companies' so they are civilians.

But yes, I'd reasonably expect special forces from various countries to be in Ukraine right now. Observing, advising, recconnaisance, gathering intelligence etc

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 02/03/2022 07:49

Also, on the subject of escalation/de-escalation - that the US and Europe appear to have chosen a path of escalation (or at least, not chosen a path of de-escalation) means they must believe there is something they can achieve by following that path.

I’m not sure which post this is from but what would have de-escalation looked like? Ie what do you think would have worked

Just had a good experience ex NATO spokesperson on the key need to not let this spill over from Ukraine and all energy on that sim

katem98 · 02/03/2022 07:52

This could be a good thing. I'm clinging on to hope at the moment. Also struggling to carry out day to day activities.

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5
DGRossetti · 02/03/2022 07:56

[quote Wannago]Article from the New York Times suggesting that the Chinese public opinion is very much pro Russia:

www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/business/china-russia-ukraine-invasion.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB[/quote]
Somehow I can't see what the Chinese people think making the slightest bit of difference to what the Chinese state thinks - or does.

cakeorwine · 02/03/2022 07:58

^So surely the bully will do it again. Surely the next threat will be 'lift sanctions or else*

And we wouldn't back down.

Then what?

We haven't been threatened yet like this.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 07:59

@Damnloginpopup

The keyword in regards to the sas and paras in my post is ex. They are the backbone of 'private military companies' so they are civilians.

But yes, I'd reasonably expect special forces from various countries to be in Ukraine right now. Observing, advising, recconnaisance, gathering intelligence etc

Mercinary fighters are a thing now anyway aren't they? Weren't some of the Russian special forces, apparently in the alleged assassination over night, supposedly mercenaries too?
ClaudineClare · 02/03/2022 08:00

For those struggling to get on with day to day stuff--it sounds harsh but you need to get used to living with this as it is not going to be over any time soon. Try not to spend too much time reading/watching the news and stay off MN. Easier said than done I know!

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 08:01

@Damnloginpopup

The keyword in regards to the sas and paras in my post is ex. They are the backbone of 'private military companies' so they are civilians.

But yes, I'd reasonably expect special forces from various countries to be in Ukraine right now. Observing, advising, recconnaisance, gathering intelligence etc

Also given the EU, UK and US are supposedly supplying intelligence, you would also expect someone at the other end to be helping the Ukrainians interpret / explain this intelligence....
theyhavenothingbuttheaudacity · 02/03/2022 08:05

@DrBlackbird

If this is what’s being reported in govt sanctioned Russia media, then seeing it repeated here makes it all that more suspect.

"What you see in Ukraine is the result of the West's actions"
"The EU is acting like an enemy"

This sentiment - that NATO forced Russia to act - has all the hallmark of an angry controlling man absolving himself of any blame because his wife drove him to violence against her.

Why not seek an explanation for NATO’s westward expansion and argue that ‘if only Russia/Putin had not been an aggressive, unstable neighbour then none of the Eastern European countries would have asked to join NATO’.

But like the abusive gaslighting partner Putin will try and deflect and attempt to blame the victim for their actions
uptonogoode · 02/03/2022 08:08

The Belarus president just displayed the war plan on live tv. This map appears red to be incredibly accurate and shows that they intend to split Ukraine up into 4 bits and share it between Russia and Belarus, it also shows they intend to invade Moldova

It's on sky news

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5
Roundeartheratchriatmas · 02/03/2022 08:15

I’m not clear where on what map it shows Moldova is to be invaded ? I can see it’s there but not much else ?

Wrongkindofovercoat · 02/03/2022 08:16

The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do...

Military domination, interesting words, doesn't sound quite the same as security concerns...

Why do some now see it as beyond the pale to suggest that a policy of recognising Russia's security concerns there and following a policy of deescalation may have bore fruit?

This is a genuine question @Yeahthat, what sort of deescalation measures do you think the Government of Ukraine could have implemented that would have prevented Russia from invading and implementing a total regime change ?

vera99 · 02/03/2022 08:18

A very perceptive take from the Telegraph.

www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/01/russian-people-may-willing-follow-vladimir-putin-oblivion/

The Russian people may be all too willing to follow Vladimir Putin into oblivion
The predictions of his imminent fall are naive, if the histories of Hitler and Napoleon are any guide

PHILIP JOHNSTON
1 March 2022 • 9:30pm
Philip Johnston

On a trip to Paris recently, I visited Les Invalides, drawn there almost against my better judgment by the presence of Napoleon Bonaparte’s mortal remains. They sit inside a gigantic sarcophagus made from purple quartzite hewn from a Russian quarry and contrived to look like the red Porphyry marble used to entomb Roman emperors.

The effect is one of extraordinary reverence. The monument sits within an open circular crypt beneath the golden dome of the church. Bizarrely, the bones of a horse now hang above it, a skeleton of Marengo, Napoleon’s favourite mount, on which he can be seen in Jacques-Louis David’s painting, Napoleon Crossing the Alps.

That, in turn, deliberately evokes Alexander the Great on Bucephalus at the battle of Issus, a marble depiction of which can be seen in Istanbul’s Archaeological Museum.

The message is unambiguous: here lies a “great man” of history, emulating another conqueror who also left an indelible mark on humanity. We are fascinated by such people, even though they are brutal, ruthless and despotic. They seem to weave a spell over the millions prepared to follow them, sometimes to destruction. But to what extent do individuals determine history?

In War and Peace, Tolstoy sought to debunk Thomas Carlyle’s theory that events are shaped by “great men” like Napoleon, seeing them instead as “involuntary instruments of history, performing work hidden from them but comprehensible to us”.

Once again, however, the invasion of Ukraine is being personalised as “Putin’s War” or the adventurism of “Mad Vlad”, thereby divorcing the event from its context by making it entirely a projection of one man’s derangement. The same has happened with the Second World War, which is invariably associated almost entirely with Hitler, and rarely with the German people.

Yet if such men are to pursue their own version of reality, others around them – including much of the general populace – must buy into the narrative.

These can be people who stand to benefit from keeping the individual in power, like the oligarchs who have enriched themselves during Putin’s reign. Or they can be ideological bedfellows like Hitler’s Nazi followers.

Putin has tapped into a strain of Russian nationalism that lies deep in the psyche and long predates him. So many are ready to believe that Russia is beleaguered by the West because that is a worldview they have always held.

They are also open to the justification given on state-controlled media that Russian troops are merely engaged in a humanitarian operation in eastern Ukraine to protect their ethnic brethren from fascist death squads and genocide. Putin said recently that without helping the insurgents in the Donbas there would be “another Srebrenica”. The fact this is preposterous is irrelevant if it is believed in Russia.

A similar story of victimhood was used by the Nazis to stoke resentment in 1930s Germany. They had plenty of material to work with, not least the perceived injustices of the Treaty of Versailles and the reparations imposed on Germany, together with its territorial losses.

The German high command had never been reconciled to the idea that they had lost the Great War and were willing to back a politician, even an Austrian corporal, who wanted to restore their country’s “rightful” place in the world. Hitler could not have staged a war without the Wehrmacht or suppressed dissent without the Gestapo and the rest of his state apparatus.

The so-called great men of history never act alone. Napoleon was followed by his Grande Armée into Russia and to miserable retreat because until then he had, by and large, been a winner, extending the boundaries of France, even egged on by “progressive” European thinkers – until he crowned himself emperor and turned into the demagogue they despised.

But he came to personify France; and even after his abdication in 1814 managed to rally the country and his troops for one last hurrah after escaping Elba – before meeting his doom at Waterloo.

German support for Hitler carried on until their country was virtually destroyed. It is astonishing, given the scale of the crimes committed. That the first concerted attempt to depose him did not take place until 1944, by which time total defeat was inevitable.

So it is with Putin, who has created a phony sense of national grievance, and an effective administration to underpin it, out of the kleptocratic mayhem of the post-Soviet years. The idea has suddenly taken root in the West that his days must be numbered because he has miscalculated badly and is leading his country inexorably towards disaster. But this is wishful thinking. We must beware projecting onto Russia a rational interpretation of events that is not necessarily shared by its people.

Indeed, the more they are hurt by economic sanctions and cannot get their money from the bank – or even use the Moscow metro – the more Putin can claim that the West really is out to get them, merely for trying to help fellow Russians being badly treated in a neighbouring country. Controlling the message is key.

It may be more difficult in an era of widely disseminated social media, but it can still be manipulated by fake news broadcast to a credulous population. Goebbels’s maxim – “repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth” – holds good, even in the age of Twitter and Telegram.

Clearly, Putin is no longer the pragmatic schemer we thought he was – a merciless but wily practitioner who understood the limits of his power and who many seasoned Kremlin-watchers assured us was just bluffing.

But does turning Russia into a pariah state now embolden him to do even worse things; or do the people around him realise he is a deranged egomaniac so frightened of getting ill that he sits at the end of the world’s longest tables to avoid contact with his advisers?

It took co-ordinated military action to bring Napoleon and Hitler to their knees, whereas the world is entrusting its combined economic power to do the same to Putin while avoiding direct confrontation.

It may work; but those who hope he will be toppled any time soon do not have history on their side.

uptonogoode · 02/03/2022 08:20

@Roundeartheratchriatmas this article suggests it thehill.com/policy/international/596409-belarus-president-stands-in-front-of-battle-map-indicating-moldova

DrBlackbird · 02/03/2022 08:22

This analysis comes from the economist who coined the term ‘bric’ countries. He’s written an interesting article about a presentation he gave in 2008 to Russian economists/govt advising them that the country needed economic reforms if it wanted to achieve more than 2% growth.

I have no great expertise at geopolitics but I have broadly assumed in the past decade or so that Vladimir Putin had decided that his huge domestic popularity would decline because he couldn’t achieve the growth that had taken place pre-crisis. Nor could he really reform, because much of his personal financial benefit and those of some close to him depended on the status quo, so he had to shift to another platform, which was loosely based around the idea of making Russia great.

During those years, I got to know several senior technocrats in the policy world, primarily from the central bank and finance ministry, and leading economic influencers, and I was often struck by how widely the belief was about Putin’s excellence as a strategist.

I had for some years been expecting some great era of big [economic] reforms to be unleashed due to these views but alas, they never came, and instead, this game of playing on his perception of western weakness dominated his apparent strategic thinking.

Putin is not the first political ruler to use war on neighbours as a diversion to hide failing leadership at home. However there is very little hope that Ukraine can survive as an independent sovereign nation. Russia’s military capabilities and manpower is too great however poorly trained or equipped. Rationally, there is even less hope for Zelensky to survive in the long term.

notimagain · 02/03/2022 08:26

@bluewanda

This is awful Sad

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10567285/Desperate-battle-flee-Kyiv-Thousands-fight-trains-capital.html

Probably a silly question, but why can’t the Ukraine just launch an aircraft and bomb the convoy to smithereens before it reaches Kyiv?

If they could, they would.

The fact the Ukraine hasn’t mean they can’t (Air Force etc not functioning)l

takethegirloutofwales · 02/03/2022 08:29

My 13 year old has taken herself offline - off social media - everything as she wasn’t coping with any of it. I got a ca from school last Friday as she was in tears and needed to speak to me. Turns out she had overheard another kid saying Russia were going to start dropping bombs on us at midday. It took a lot of reassurance to pull her back from being so utterly terrified. It’s hard to balance being honest with the kids and relieving their fears.

vera99 · 02/03/2022 08:34

Social media is a poison as much as it is a panacea. Back in the old days, it would be radio in the morning, news at 6 and 10 and a newspaper maybe and that was that. With books and libraries for those that wanted to go deeper. All filtered through the lens of large institutions that created at its best a coherent national narrative.

The nerds behind "social" and the internet have a lot to answer for.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/03/2022 08:44

My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war.

Just as well it's not, because then we're all fucked. This is why we need a buffer of non Nato states around Russia as badly as they do.

But I realise my opinion is unpopular.

DrBlackbird · 02/03/2022 08:50

Completely agree with you there vera99. On balance, SM is more poison for children/young people. Useful for adults in times of conflict it seems.