The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

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Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

[quote Wannago]Article from the New York Times suggesting that the Chinese public opinion is very much pro Russia:

www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/business/china-russia-ukraine-invasion.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB[/quote]
They don't have free media either, and social media is restricted, I don't think you can access Twitter there, for example. So they are only fed what the Chinese government wants them to think.

But yes, I'd reasonably expect special forces from various countries to be in Ukraine right now. Observing, advising, recconnaisance, gathering intelligence etc

Do you think? I often wonder if we overestimate the capability of covert services.

Somehow I can't see what the Chinese people think making the slightest bit of difference to what the Chinese state thinks - or does.

Yes but if the Chinese state thought this was an out of bounds position, the Chinese people would not be being allowed to express it on social media. The fact that it is allowed to be the dominant narrative (if true) says a lot.

@takethegirloutofwales

My 13 year old has taken herself offline - off social media - everything as she wasn’t coping with any of it. I got a ca from school last Friday as she was in tears and needed to speak to me. Turns out she had overheard another kid saying Russia were going to start dropping bombs on us at midday. It took a lot of reassurance to pull her back from being so utterly terrified. It’s hard to balance being honest with the kids and relieving their fears.

Your poor daughter. Young people have had to deal with so much over the last two years and now this.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war.

Just as well it's not, because then we're all fucked. This is why we need a buffer of non Nato states around Russia as badly as they do.

But I realise my opinion is unpopular.

It's unpopular, because it's probably correct.

And will probably happen, with much less opposition from the US and west.
It's because with Zelensky a-once-in-a-generation leader of such guts and integrity appeared to speak up for his country that we are so horrified, as much as the humanitarian crisis. He has shaken us awake, and appears to have shamed even the likes of Johnson to some extent at least. I suppose when the inevitable happens and he is gone, it will be back to 'Trouble in the Balkans' mentality, partygate and an overheating planet.
It's all such a waste.

@MrsLargeEmbodied

how on earth do they get the bbc and other reporters out if needed?

Not sure, I know some got out earlier, like Nick Robinson, he posted a video about his translator who is called Sofia and got out with her son. But I was also wondering about this.

If the Russians do take Kyiv, are they going to let foreign journalists go, or find some pretext to arrest them?

The guardian has a map showing the location of missiles strikes - a few near Lvov. What happens if the Russians accidently go over the border into Poland

probably depends if it killed anyone. If one landed safely in a field, they would probably say some strong words. If it lands in a border town like Medyka and kills people, that's a different matter.

One gets the feeling that Putin knowing the wealth of Zelensky thought he would be venal as many of his own oligarchs and fold and flee with his government collapsing behind him and for which Biden gave him an offer of a ride out. Turns out to be a gross miscalculation.

caknowledge.com/zelenskyy-net-worth/

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war.

Just as well it's not, because then we're all fucked. This is why we need a buffer of non Nato states around Russia as badly as they do.

But I realise my opinion is unpopular.

Ukraine is non-NATO. In invading and taking Ukraine, Russia have a border with NATO. By choice!

Argument doesn't stand up to logic.

a buffer of non Nato states around Russia but this assumes that will be sufficient to appease Putin.

@Febrier

Do you think? I often wonder if we overestimate the capability of covert services.

That’s a really very Important point….

in terms of the military side of UK covert stuff a lot of people seem to think we have unlimited numbers of “them” , and that for example they can leap buildings at a single bound, parachute into Moscow, land on a balcony and assassinate heads of state at will.

Don’t get me wrong, they are very very good at what they do, but the UK SF numbers are quite small, they can’t be everywhere , they are not invisible and can’t do the impossible.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war.

Just as well it's not, because then we're all fucked. This is why we need a buffer of non Nato states around Russia as badly as they do.

But I realise my opinion is unpopular.

I completely agree.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and thanks to all those who have explained what is going on as I was a bit clueless!

I haven’t had time to read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been raised before but what I don’t understand is how the Russian people don’t know the truth about what is happening. I know that the Russian media is controlled but surely the internet cannot be censored and controlled?

Not quite sure of the veracity, but the former Russian PM said that Germany was stopping buying gas from Russia. Not quite sure why Martha didn't pick up on it ...

My understanding is that as Ukraine is not a NATO country it’s not easy to intervene under international law. As soon as a NATO country is attacked then that would mean NATO joined the war

No it wouldn't because the argument against nato intervention now, applies equally if he attacked e.g. Latvia AND without the Americans, European nato doesn't have the military to defend say Latvia, the UK has 1600 troops in Estonia and this is one of the largest forces in Eastern europe.

So would the US get involved in a conflict in Europe? Bidens response to the Ukraine crisis is 7000 extra troops & American public opinion is 4 to 1 against US getting heavily involved.

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/youtube-blocks-rt-sputnik-across-europe-google-russia-war-ukraine-b985229.html

RT blocked on youtube and google.

@DrBlackbird

a buffer of non Nato states around Russia but this assumes that will be sufficient to appease Putin.

Dr I agree with you and pp on messaging

@DrBlackbird

a buffer of non Nato states around Russia but this assumes that will be sufficient to appease Putin.

Surely this buffer system only works if the buffer voters choose Russian backed/facing governments. So it effectively removes citizens rights to decide who should govern them.

Isn't Belarus the only west non-Nato state currently bordering Russia , all the rest are in Nato. To have a 'buffer zone' would that mean all those other countries would have to leave Nato ?

So would the US get involved in a conflict in Europe? Bidens response to the Ukraine crisis is 7000 extra troops & American public opinion is 4 to 1 against US getting heavily involved.

So similar to Vietnam then ?

Ros Atkins' 3 minute recap video
twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1498741230112587782?t=zCSDuAqRVGUwGTVSf25avg&s=19

Ben Wallace reiterated the Nato Article 5 no-fly zone line robustly this morning. Putin and his cronies keep re-iterating that threateningly.

www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

@strawberriesarenot totally agree had Zelinsky been some uninspiring moustachioed non-English speaking President rather than a handsome articulate brave guy that he is the worldwide response would probably be somewhat less muted at least in as much a social media amplifies the plight of Ukraine and Ukrainians.

I'm a great fan of the British YouTuber Bald and Bankrupt who is a Russian speaking vlogger and always find his videos informative funny and well worth watching. Here he is getting out of Kyiv the other day.

@Inastatus

I’ve been following this thread with interest and thanks to all those who have explained what is going on as I was a bit clueless!

I haven’t had time to read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been raised before but what I don’t understand is how the Russian people don’t know the truth about what is happening. I know that the Russian media is controlled but surely the internet cannot be censored and controlled?

My Neighbour is Russian, Her mum Lives in Moscow. There is a lot of anti Western thought there, and according to neighbour, about 65 % of people in Russia support Putin and think he is “ Doing the right thing” bringing back Ukraine into the Russian fold. Brother’s GF is Russian, living over there, and she too is Pro Putin.

Seems that Russians are subject to a lot of propaganda.

Probably a bit like we are.

Sorry there is of course Finland to the northwest !

twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1498942914730369024?t=g1XJGs8MJbHZP-vYQg7JzQ&s=19

Day 7 pointers on the war:

• Kharkiv under intense bombardment & surrounded
• Russia says the coastal corridor from Crimea to Russia has been achieved
• Kyiv under pressure but not yet surrounded
• Russian army performance remains poor even tho invasion force largely committed

@MarshaBradyo

This is a good article re state news in Russia and use of language etc

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60571737.amp

It has instructed media outlets to use information only from official Russian sources when reporting the invasion, demanding that they take down any reports referring to "a declaration of war" or "an invasion".

How DO we all know what’s true and what isn’t?