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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

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14
notimagain · 01/03/2022 20:52

@Furries

I know absolutely zero regarding warfare, tactics etc. My very small, and probably misguided, hope regarding the convoy is that they are letting it build up - to get a large amount of Russian vehicles in one place. And that they’ve saved a few drones to make use of once more vehicles are queued up.

Need to find the link, but apparently some electric vehicle charging points along a Russian motorway have been hacked so that the display reads “Putin is a dickhead”!

Don’t think it’s that cunning a plan TBH, but if that is the deal the Uke armed forces had better get on with it.

Reason I say that is because there are lots of reports in the last hour or so of bombing and/or missile strikes and use of cluster munitions in and around Kharkiv and elsewhere in the East.

It’s possible the Russian leadership have finally lost patience with anything remotely resembling a softly softly approach and have literally started to bring in the big guns.

Klouds · 01/03/2022 20:52

One thing I do notice is the relative lack of street protests. During/after our invasion (plus the US) of Iraq there were massive protests here about it, for several weeks. For some reason, even though Ukraine has huge TV coverage, regular people are not protesting at a street level (or at least the city where I live). Also, I'm not silly enough to believe that such protests will influence the Russians.

As well as sympathizing and supporting Ukraine, we should also reflect on our our own long history of doing such things.

Edwin Starr - War (What is it good for)

katem98 · 01/03/2022 20:53

@Wannago Could you please repeat your post? A few people talking about it but I'm unable to find it and now intrigued!

letmesleep123 · 01/03/2022 20:54

[quote petcurls]@letmesleep123 delurking.
Bloody hell that is a good speech but this woman belongs to Germany's most right wing political party, a party that proudly and disgustingly racist. Did you know that this is a racist party representative when you linked to it?[/quote]
No, I didn't so apologies if this offended anyone.

There is nothing racist about the speech, however. It is a great speech. This conflict needs de-escalation and fast and the only way to do it is for a 3rd party to broker the peace. There needs to be a security structure in Europe that works for all parties. This bloody mess is a result of the diplomatic failure of not only Russia and Ukraine but the whole of Europe.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 01/03/2022 20:54

@TokyoSushi

Also could anybody explain the no fly zone to me? What is it exactly? And why are we so reluctant to impose it? Just going in shower but thanks in advance!
Good explainer:

"A no-fly zone refers to any region of airspace where it has been established that certain aircraft cannot fly.

It can be used to protect sensitive areas, such as royal residences, or brought in temporarily over sporting events and large gatherings.

In a military context, a no-fly zone is designed to stop aircraft from entering banned airspace, usually to prevent attacks or surveillance.

It has to be enforced by military means.

That could be surveillance, pre-emptive strikes against defensive systems or bringing down aircraft which enter the restricted area.

A no-fly zone over Ukraine would mean that military forces - specifically Nato forces - would engage directly with any Russian planes spotted in those skies and shoot at them if necessary."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60576443

It won't happen because they have to be enforced and that's tantamount to a declaration of war in Europe.

Motorina · 01/03/2022 20:55

@TokyoSushi

Also could anybody explain the no fly zone to me? What is it exactly? And why are we so reluctant to impose it? Just going in shower but thanks in advance!
Because unless we can enforce it it's just a polite suggestion, which Russia will ignore.

The only way to enforce it is to shoot down planes that breach it.

For NATO to shoot down Russian planes brings us into overt war.

BeyondPurpleTulips · 01/03/2022 20:55

@TokyoSushi

Also could anybody explain the no fly zone to me? What is it exactly? And why are we so reluctant to impose it? Just going in shower but thanks in advance!
Ukraine is not NATO, so NATO countries (ie us) do not have the jurisdiction to do it. We start shooting down Russian planes, they have no reason not to attack NATO territories
Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 20:55

@HijadelaLuna

First post on here and very impressed by these threads but please do not quote Alice Weidel or the AFD- they are a vile bunch of racists.
Indeed they are but going by this particular quote they have the capability to say something valid too. I'm not being an apologist to them in any way and I'm grateful you mentioned who/what they represent so I can temper my y thoughts but it was an interesting read.
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Tigersonvaseline · 01/03/2022 20:56

Tony Blair / labour has certainly done his fair share of smoozhing oligarchs, Putin etc.

Blair was cosying up to sanctioned oligarchs when he wasn't having a love with other tyrants.

RecklessRemote · 01/03/2022 20:57

[quote Yeahthat]@WeQuestionEverything

It's not about what I want. It's about being realistic about our own capabilities, what's actually achievable, and what our core interests are.

We should have learned in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc that it's not possible to simply remake the world as we like it. We're not omnipotent. We're going to have to get used to that as the unipolar world under US hegemony becomes a bipolar one as China rises.

I personally believe that those who counselled against the expansion of NATO and pointed to Ukraine as a future flashpoint between Russia and the west, as far back as the 90s, have been vindicated.

My belief, as I've stated previously, is that intransigence has done nothing except create a tragedy in Ukraine.

The solution that I envision is negotiations predicated on Ukraine being offered and accepting:

Incorporation into the EU, but ruled out of any involvement in a hypothetical future EU military; accepting neutrality; ruling out (constitutionally, if need be) future incorporation into NATO and the development of nuclear weapons.

Ukraine is free to focus on becoming prosperous through economic integration into the EU.

Putin can claim that he has demilitarised Ukraine and checked NATO expansion.

Furthermore, seeking to normalise relations with Russia (which could take decades) and mutually moving towards disarmament both in conventional and nuclear weapons.[/quote]
@katem98

TokyoSushi · 01/03/2022 20:57

Brilliant, thanks all.

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 20:58

This link takes you to verified losses on both sides, it is cross checked and evidenced so figures will be lower than reality... Most interesting is that two Russian fuel trains have been destroyed, that's going to do a lot of damage to the advance.

www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1

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Notonthestairs · 01/03/2022 21:00

Can anyone tell me why the oligarchs have been given 30 days to move their funds?

Has this happened elsewhere (EU? US?)

twitter.com/billbrowder/status/1497674859937243138?s=21

katem98 · 01/03/2022 21:00

Thanks, @RecklessRemote . Agreed, great perspective.

Moknicker · 01/03/2022 21:01

From NYT live updates

Experts fear the convoy, which includes supply and armored attack vehicles, could be used to encircle and cut off the capital or to launch a full-on assault. The front end of the convoy is just 20 miles from the capital.

“What we are seeing is basically Phase 2, which is a shift to much more brutal, tactless, unrestricted warfare, which will lead to many more civilian casualties and bloodier battles,” said Mathieu Boulègue, an expert in Russian warfare at Chatham House, a leading policy institute in London.

While the Ukrainian military has air power and missiles capable of striking the convoy, its abilities are limited. Targeting such a long convoy would present its own challenges, as well as risk inciting Russia to retaliate.

“The Ukrainians attacking it from the air would have to make a decision of taking their very limited air force and going after what is a very difficult target,” said Frederick W. Kagan, the director of the Critical Threats project at the American Enterprise Institute, which has partnered with the Institute of the Study of War to provide updates on the Russian invasion. He noted that the Russian military is likely defending the convoy aggressively.

It was also possible that Ukrainian commanders are waiting to engage the armored vehicles until they enter Kyiv, where they could be more easily destroyed while confined on city streets, and where neighborhoods could provide plenty of hiding places and protection for soldiers firing anti-tank missiles.

Experts cautioned that it was still too early to tell the convoy’s exact purpose, saying that it was also possible that the convoy could be used as part of a pincer movement to cut off the northeast of the country. But they said that Russia appeared to be adapting its initial strategy.

Under that strategy, Kremlin leaders had wrongly assumed Ukrainian forces would suffer a swift defeat against a superior Russian military, and that Russian forces could quickly take major cities without much fighting. Instead, Russian forces were stalled by stiff resistance from both Ukraine’s military and citizens who took up arms.

So what do we know about this convoy? Cloud cover has made it difficult to get a continuous or complete view of the area or a clear sense of the convoy’s movement. It was not clear whether the buildings and homes seen burning had been attacked.

The convoy is dotted along a roadway that stretches from Antonov airport to the north toward the village of Prybirsk for approximately 40 miles, according to Maxar Technologies, which released the images.

It includes food supply trucks for soldiers and fuel for vehicles, but the bulk of it, in Mr. Boulègue’s assessment, is made up of miles upon miles of heavy artillery.

The convoy is not one continuous line. Some vehicles are spaced far apart from one another, while in some sections two or three military vehicles are moving alongside each other across the road.

Mr. Kagan said it was notable that the convoy was not made up entirely of attack vehicles.

A Pentagon official said on Tuesday that Russian forces had been plagued by shortages of fuel, food and spare parts. Mr. Kagan said a number of trucks in the column likely contained such essential supplies to avoid more logistical problems.

Mr. Kagan observed that when Russia initially concentrated its forces, in particular on the Belarusian border ahead of its advance, it didn’t appear to have built up the kind of logistical base usually mobilized before an attack was launched. That, he said, helped to explain why Russia’s incursion had failed to quickly capture the capital.

While it was not unusual for an invading force to have such logistical challenges, he said it was unusual for them to persist several days into an invasion and in a military operation in which President Vladimir V. Putin had spent at least months preparing.

“It reflects the fact that this invasion was in fact poorly planned, poorly, poorly prepared, and is being poorly conducted,” Mr. Kagan said. “That column reflects, in part, Russia scrambled to adjust to problems that they had created by the way that they prepared and conducted this attack.”

Viviennemary · 01/03/2022 21:01

I heard a couple of days ago Ukraine was going to be supplied with anti aircraft weapons. Now that would mean they would d be shoooting down the Russisn attackers to defend their country. But that would escalate things hugely. Difficult to say how this will end. Even if Russia puts in a puppet government and deposes the Ukrainian President will that be recognised by anybody.,

Scianel · 01/03/2022 21:03

One thing I do notice is the relative lack of street protests. During/after our invasion (plus the US) of Iraq there were massive protests here about it, for several weeks.

That makes sense though. Our own elected government had embarked on a controversial and unpopular invasion.

It's a very different situation to this.

HijadelaLuna · 01/03/2022 21:03

@Damnloginpopup that is indeed surprising but I cannot bring myself to listen to anything that woman says. Anyway, sorry for the derail of your thread ☺️

Yeahthat · 01/03/2022 21:04

The stick is that Russia would like to be a prosperous country just as any in the west does.
Yes, if they're relegated to pariah status by the US and its allies, they can align themselves more closely with China - but they're unlikely to see it as desirable to become a vassal state.

Normalising relations is the incentive for them - projects like Nordstream 2 etc. Their economy is failing and they're facing a demographic crisis. You offer them the chance to share the spoils of mutual cooperation and advancement.

Otherwise, we end up back in the same situation as we are now - which isn't productive for anyone. Ultimately, Russians want the same things as us and the Russian state acts in its own self-interest, with the primary goal of ensuring its own survival. Remove the security dilemma expanding to its borders, and attempt to build a relationship based on mutual cooperation from which everyone benefits.

If that fails, then we'd be back where we are now. But we know that the previous path of intransigence and unilateral demands has failed, and been a catastrophe for Ukraine.

supermoonrising · 01/03/2022 21:04

@Wannago
Fair points in reply to my post. Perhaps the reply from the Russian perspective would perhaps be:

“we are tired of the West and NATO playing games. Promising one thing in 1990 and ever since, and then doing the other. Promoting and encouraging (if not actually engaging and financially supporting) the 2014 coup”.

“Rather than taking any more of the West’s “assurances” as Ukraine inches closer and closer to NATO and EU membership, how about we take preemptive action, gain the upper hand, and then we talk again once we’ve created a larger buffer zone/helped install a Russia friendly government - which can replace the current one which was the result of an armed coup and is hell bent on putting NATO on our doorstep.”

Btw, I’m not an expert on this by any means, so just speculating, but I am interested in trying to understand the pro invasion Russian perspective here, as much as I oppose any wars of aggression.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 01/03/2022 21:04

Alice's speech is an interesting one, on the one hand it's all 'well you can hardly blame Russia' and on the other 'Russia is a bad guy and we need to arm ourselves' , bit of a shit sandwich speech ?

Yeahthat · 01/03/2022 21:05

@WeQuestionEverything

Reply above

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 21:06

Caught up now. Two things -

1 has there been any Israeli response to the Babyn Yar park being hit (though not targeted presumably) and are they actually siding with Russia as I've heard from a contact (surprised me)

2 Pakistan reported as signing a huge trade deal for wheat and gas with Russia. (I believe we give Pakistan a lot of financial aid don't we?

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Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 21:08

[quote HijadelaLuna]@Damnloginpopup that is indeed surprising but I cannot bring myself to listen to anything that woman says. Anyway, sorry for the derail of your thread ☺️[/quote]
Don't be sorry. Many, including myself, would not know the background if you hadn't informed us. It's relevant.

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