The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

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Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

[quote Alexandra2001]@RainbowZebraWarrior

Thread is moving fast as expected, so I'm on catch up. But I agree with this. It may sound OTT, but the Tory party literally have blood on their hands

Careful... you 'll have the Thread de rail police onto you.[/quote]
I’m skipping this stuff now not getting into another bum fight!

But I agree your other post it’s a very difficult situation, we don’t know what will be next.

FOJN

I tried to leave reviews on ta about a car park in Haworth, Which was privately owned and actually made money by setting up a spiders Web of triggers for a fine with the clamper sitting there all day clamping.

Eventually it made it into the house of lords? Because an MP or someone got " clamped".

There was even a TV program about them!
Ta wouldn't allow me to " warn" unsuspecting tourists about it!!!!!

Who owns it'?

@vera99

The RAF must be quietly getting ready to hit some Russian mobile AA in case the no-fly zone happens. Let's say we hit one, to make the point. What would Putin do next? Cruise missiles to RAF bases? And then what? Do we do the same to air force bases in Russia? At what point would Putin stop? Would his own people stop him?

It would be a nato force, primarily the USA (Europe hasn't enough equipment), Putin would be told that if he carries on using missiles etc, we will shot them down and anyone who gets in our way.

However, the Americans aren't going to any such thing and history will judge us on whether this was the correct course or not.

Just popping back on after my exercise class to say thank you to @WeQuestionEverything and @Cam77 Your explanations and insights on my many, many questions are massively helpful and much appreciated

@RainbowZebraWarrior

I've literally just read your comment whilst a picture of Putin / oligarch and a smiling Tony Blair flashed up on my sky news

@MarshaBradyo no a bum fight certainly won't help anyone!

Also could anybody explain the no fly zone to me? What is it exactly? And why are we so reluctant to impose it? Just going in shower but thanks in advance!

The EU collectively seems too have lots of military resources actually!!!

I'm sure they can hold their own in conjunction with the USA.

[quote theyhavenothingbuttheaudacity]@MarshaBradyo no a bum fight certainly won't help anyone! [/quote]
Haha quite, just noticed that

@WeQuestionEverything

It's not about what I want. It's about being realistic about our own capabilities, what's actually achievable, and what our core interests are.

We should have learned in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc that it's not possible to simply remake the world as we like it. We're not omnipotent. We're going to have to get used to that as the unipolar world under US hegemony becomes a bipolar one as China rises.

I personally believe that those who counselled against the expansion of NATO and pointed to Ukraine as a future flashpoint between Russia and the west, as far back as the 90s, have been vindicated.

My belief, as I've stated previously, is that intransigence has done nothing except create a tragedy in Ukraine.

The solution that I envision is negotiations predicated on Ukraine being offered and accepting:

Incorporation into the EU, but ruled out of any involvement in a hypothetical future EU military; accepting neutrality; ruling out (constitutionally, if need be) future incorporation into NATO and the development of nuclear weapons.

Ukraine is free to focus on becoming prosperous through economic integration into the EU.

Putin can claim that he has demilitarised Ukraine and checked NATO expansion.

Furthermore, seeking to normalise relations with Russia (which could take decades) and mutually moving towards disarmament both in conventional and nuclear weapons.

@letmesleep123 delurking.
Bloody hell that is a good speech but this woman belongs to Germany's most right wing political party, a party that proudly and disgustingly racist. Did you know that this is a racist party representative when you linked to it?

Thread is moving fast as expected, so I'm on catch up. But I agree with this. It may sound OTT, but the Tory party literally have blood on their hands

They do.

[quote Cam77]@DrBlackbird
But Ukraine was still steadfast in its ambition to join NATO as recent as two weeks ago......

and more ...

"At the end of November 2020, it became known that the NATO Summit in 2021 will consider the issue of returning to "open door policy", including the issue of providing Georgia with a Membership Action Plan (MAP). On February 9, 2021, the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Denys Shmyhal, stated that he hoped that Ukraine would be able to receive an action plan for NATO membership at the same time as Georgia.[97] In response, Alliance Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg confirmed during Prime Minister Shmyhal's visit to Brussels that Ukraine is a candidate for NATO membership.[98]"
Wiki

Doesn't seem to have been a "hard no" anywhere in sight. Afraid to say I think Russia's justifications of the possibility of a hostile military alliance right along their border had some merit. Would the US contemplate Chinese or Russian forces on its Mexico/Canda border? We knew today could come.[/quote]
I have two problems with this analysis:

a) Putin made a speech right before he went in saying, as I understand it, it had nothing to do with Nato, and everything to do with Ukrainians and Russians being one people. If the real issue was NATO, then why would he say what he said?

b) for all the "flirting", there was no "engagement" or "marriage" yet. After he amassed all of his troups on the border - why didn't he say "we are going to go in unless the Ukrainians renounce any claim to Nato"? Or alternatively "We want NATO assurances that Ukraine will not join, otherwise we are going in". There were lots of communication opportunities, with Macron, Liz Truss etc. If that is your end came, you don't say - "No, we are not going to war", "we are not going to war" "we are just doing exercises", and then invade if what you really want to do is stop the flirting before it turns into more. You do this if you want to crush the current government and put in your own puppet, or you hold that really Ukrainian territory is Russian territory, historically part of your empire, and you want it back.
So while I can understand that flirting with Ukrainian membership of NATO might have been not a wise thing to do, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what has actually played out.

I posted, and 80% has been cut out...is that normal?

[quote Yeahthat]@WeQuestionEverything

It's not about what I want. It's about being realistic about our own capabilities, what's actually achievable, and what our core interests are.

We should have learned in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc that it's not possible to simply remake the world as we like it. We're not omnipotent. We're going to have to get used to that as the unipolar world under US hegemony becomes a bipolar one as China rises.

I personally believe that those who counselled against the expansion of NATO and pointed to Ukraine as a future flashpoint between Russia and the west, as far back as the 90s, have been vindicated.

My belief, as I've stated previously, is that intransigence has done nothing except create a tragedy in Ukraine.

The solution that I envision is negotiations predicated on Ukraine being offered and accepting:

Incorporation into the EU, but ruled out of any involvement in a hypothetical future EU military; accepting neutrality; ruling out (constitutionally, if need be) future incorporation into NATO and the development of nuclear weapons.

Ukraine is free to focus on becoming prosperous through economic integration into the EU.

Putin can claim that he has demilitarised Ukraine and checked NATO expansion.

Furthermore, seeking to normalise relations with Russia (which could take decades) and mutually moving towards disarmament both in conventional and nuclear weapons.[/quote]
Good post

I'm getting seriously worried that we all see that Russians block media opinions and now uk is doing the same...I didn't even say anything weird I'm a bit freaked out!

@wannago
Also a good post and I hadn’t thought of it that way

Well i thought that was exactly what Russia was asking for as they built up troops but when people like Truss etc were asked, it was a definite No... i remember this very well because i thought it was a stupid position to take.

Russia has always been a paranoid state, no wonder considering how many times they ve been attacked.

This is beautiful and I wish this romantic soul well. A Ukranian soldier reciting a Persian love poem. The poem, to a lover, asks who will tell her of his death.

twitter.com/farnazfassihi/status/1498720918708924423

@Yeahthat

That's decisive and thank you. Having given Putin the carrot, where is your stick?

[quote Thereisnolight]@wannago
Also a good post and I hadn’t thought of it that way[/quote]
Agree

was it not just a glitch @reallynowreally?

russia blocked stations which were calling for violent revolutions, they said. were you calling for a revolution?! (lighthearted)

@reallynowreally perhaps try posting again rather than freaking out ? What's the old saying ? Never attribute to malice and all that ...

@wannago excellent post.

"His extreme measures to avoid the virus would make sense if he had an underlying condition."

Make sense?

Make more sense maybe, but that alone doesn't explain the silly long table.

I don't have any tables that long!

(signed a CEV person, on steroids and heavy duty immune suppressants - four jabs. Admittedly I'm not 69, but my horse riding days are much longer ago than Vlad's)