Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Thereisnolight · 01/03/2022 20:13

What’s happening currently to Ukraine’s ordinary citizens is terrible.

But - and this has been asked a few times now on these threads but I think it’s so important - what have the Ukrainian leaders attempted to do to try to calm things down? They should not be applying to join the EU or NATO - certainly not now - and should commit to not doing so in the forseeable future. Why shouldn’t they join if they want to, you ask? Well, because of the loonnngg history with its neighbour - which can’t be swept under the carpet - and because if things don’t settle and other countries have to step up and help they risk being destroyed themselves. That’s a very high price imo to pay for Ukraine’s EU ambitions.

Or is Ukraine in fact a pawn somehow in some other, long-running game we know nothing about?

Tigersonvaseline · 01/03/2022 20:13

Eng tech

Yes.

In the article posted earlier that was made beautifully clear.
The bottle of lethal poison chucked onto a charity shop box, was enough too kill thousands.

The other victim was turned onto a human weapon.

Behind the scenes I feel many "covert" team's are going on in paid for by shadowy other places.

French foreign legion/ sas/ etc.

theyhavenothingbuttheaudacity · 01/03/2022 20:13

I'm watching the American defence stream- what are they actually saying?

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 01/03/2022 20:14

@MissConductUS the link is behind a paywall. Please could you summarise what is being said and if there's any reliable intelligence behind it? I keep hoping he's going to croak it 🙏

ClaudineClare · 01/03/2022 20:14

A non-Nato coalition hits the 40 mile armoured column and destroys part of it (and only part)

Which countries would be willing to be part of this?

vera99 · 01/03/2022 20:15

@WeQuestionEverything we do everything and everything we can do to help short of engaging militarily on Ukrainian soil. But the salient fact that Russia and China as massively nuked superpowers utterly changes the equation. I'm sorry but I do not want to open that Pandora's box and anyway if that happens do you not think he will obliterate Kyiv with non-nuclear missiles and weapons as Russians back home see thousands of their boys dead. Your gamble is Putin falls and we all join in that celebration if it fails god only knows.

Tigersonvaseline · 01/03/2022 20:15

There is no light.

They are desperate and fighting for their very life.

They can ask and demand anything but what they actually get is a different story.

BeyondPurpleTulips · 01/03/2022 20:17

Papa Mike kilo

Yeahthat · 01/03/2022 20:18

[quote WeQuestionEverything]@vera99

I am UK based, not in Ukraine if that is what you mean. Bullies are the same wherever we are. They need to be hit hard, with conviction and decisively. That is the nature of war. We ended up on the bullies' side with Bush junior and (importantly) his senators that privatised war. I never agreed with 2003 and what happened later, though I learned from it.

Crucially, I do not believe Russia will go nuclear. I cannot stress enough this is my belief. You have your own and the question I am asking is what would you do next? Rather than rhetorical questions, I am wondering if any posters would be prepared to cross a line. Because that is what it is about now. I would do so now, this day.

This is what I would do:

  1. A non-Nato coalition hits the 40 mile armoured column and destroys part of it (and only part).
  1. Substantial engagement is directed at the Russian people to confirm this is a war against Putin's aggression only and that Russia is part of Europe, always has been, and every Russian man and woman has the same rights human and political rights that we have.
  1. Ensure that 1 and 2 are delivered in equal measure.[/quote]
Don't agree with this at all.

Firstly, treating geopolitics and conflict between nuclear powers as analogous to a schoolyard bully. Secondly, unambiguous predictions about Putin's mental state or what he's willing to escalate to. Let alone if we all but declare that we're now seeking regime change in Russia - and by the way, by all accounts those likely to replace him aren't much more savoury.

Yeahthat · 01/03/2022 20:20

@Tigersonvaseline

French Foreign Legion? They wouldn't be capable of carrying out such an operation.

ClaudineClare · 01/03/2022 20:20

I feel quite sick right now at the thought of what will happen in Kyiv and beyond. The horror of it is just unspeakable. And all we can realistically do is stand by and watch.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 01/03/2022 20:23

The UK is imposing sanctions on Belarus for its role in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the government announced on Tuesday.

When will they kick in ? April the 1st ?

letmesleep123 · 01/03/2022 20:25

@Cam77

Put simply, it seems NATO has been flirting with Ukraine/Russia about the possibility of membership for more than a decade, with a huge acceleration in this since 2014. Russia's protestations were ignored, despite multiple warnings about the dangers of pursuing these high profile NATO-Ukraine meetings, action plans, etc. Great powers value security above all else. Can you imagine the US acquiescing to Chinese troops on its borders?
Exactly this. I find this speech by Dr Alice Weidel (AfD fraction of Bundestag) excellent.

"The Ukrainian people are paying the price for the Russian’s breach of the law, for the unrealistic illusions of their own leadership and for the false promises of the West, which made a fateful mistake to lure Ukraine into a hopeless confrontation and a dangerous ordeal with the unfulfillable promise of membership in NATO and the EU.
It would have been wiser to listed on Henry Kissenger, who was right in 2014, I quote: “Ukraine NATO membership represents a red line which Russia would not accept crossing”. Countless opportunities have been missed since then to negotiate neutrality for Ukraine, which would have taken into account the security interests of all parties and would have enabled Ukraine to turn from a bone of contention to a bridge between east and west.
Instead, the hardliners, caught in a completely outdated logic of the cold war, stuck to the accession for Ukraine and arrogantly denying Russia’s status as a great power. This is a failure of the West. It does not change anything about the reprehensibility of the Russian invasion, but understanding all the causes, is a prerequisite for the search for solutions. Germany, as it stands, will end up putting in place the sanctions that end up causing more harm to one’s own citizens than to those they are meant to punish. It will not put an end to the ear in Ukraine.

The failed energy turnaround has led us into a fatal one-sided dependency on Russian gas supplies, which can only be solved in the short term, if at all, at astronomical costs. Whoever says we are willing to pay a high economic price for it must also say it is the population that has to pay the price. This is also the reason why the USA is not thinking about giving up its considerable oil imports from Russia.
Germany has also become a lightweight, with a run down army and a marginalised armaments industry that is the legacy of 16 years of Mrs Merkel, where instead of dealing with real problems, we deal with the gaga gender ideology experiments.
We have to hear the wake up call and we need an energy policy that focuses on independence and security of supply. The key to this is neither more wind turbines nor liquid gas from the USA, but the return to the use of nuclear energy, because otherwise we need a federal army that regains the ability to defend the country. This not only requires more money, but above all, a strategic turnaround. We also need a diplomatic foreign policy attitude as after this war we will still live with Russia on one continent.
The challenge of creating a European security architecture that overcomes the east-west bloc thinking is not off the table. Germany can and should play an important role in this and play it as an honest broker.
The pre-requisite is that we draw the right conclusions and rebuild lost trust, sovereignty and freedom of action and just do not allow ourselves to get drawn into a war. "

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2022 20:25

@MarshaBradyo

Ellwood has been right all along so far.

Alex do you mean you agree with the no fly zone? So we would go with Ellwood rather than Biden

But what do you think the escalation would be?

Honestly Marsha ? i really don't know, i'm not military and i haven't heard the specifics i.e nato jets in the sky or anti missile systems placed inside Ukraine.....

Millions of people may die of starvation and shelling, can we stand back and watch? as we are doing with cities in the south, cut off no power no food no comms.

The issue i have is if Putin invades Latvia etc, the same arguments not to intervene are identical aren't they? let Latvia Estonia go otherwise we risk WW3

WeQuestionEverything · 01/03/2022 20:26

[quote vera99]@WeQuestionEverything we do everything and everything we can do to help short of engaging militarily on Ukrainian soil. But the salient fact that Russia and China as massively nuked superpowers utterly changes the equation. I'm sorry but I do not want to open that Pandora's box and anyway if that happens do you not think he will obliterate Kyiv with non-nuclear missiles and weapons as Russians back home see thousands of their boys dead. Your gamble is Putin falls and we all join in that celebration if it fails god only knows.[/quote]
You choose for the potential for Ukraine to be overwhelmed, a new iron curtain to be fabricated with the prospect it could be closed around the Baltic Sea, and that is for starters.

I choose to stand up and halt the destruction of a sovereign state and believe it can take place now and that this is a defining moment today. We can do that smartly by engaging two instruments in polarity. We can defend all those who are brutalised here - Russians, Ukrainians and the rest.

Furries · 01/03/2022 20:26

I know absolutely zero regarding warfare, tactics etc. My very small, and probably misguided, hope regarding the convoy is that they are letting it build up - to get a large amount of Russian vehicles in one place. And that they’ve saved a few drones to make use of once more vehicles are queued up.

Need to find the link, but apparently some electric vehicle charging points along a Russian motorway have been hacked so that the display reads “Putin is a dickhead”!

RainbowZebraWarrior · 01/03/2022 20:28

@vera99

Churchill hadn't spent the thirties enriching and sucking up to Nazis, unlike the Daily Mail and Lord Rothemere. The Tories know they are up to their necks in this and that brave journalist pointed the finger with justified and righteous anger. Forget party gate this goes much deeper and more corrosive and London is the epicentre of the Putin enablers and funders. Seize fucking Chelski ffs £1.5 bn there - privatise it and sell it to the fans for starters.
Thread is moving fast as expected, so I'm on catch up. But I agree with this. It may sound OTT, but the Tory party literally have blood on their hands.
WeQuestionEverything · 01/03/2022 20:28

@Yeahthat

So what do you want as a solution?
How would you go about achieving that?

Emmelina · 01/03/2022 20:29

Placemarking :)

vera99 · 01/03/2022 20:30

The RAF must be quietly getting ready to hit some Russian mobile AA in case the no-fly zone happens. Let's say we hit one, to make the point. What would Putin do next? Cruise missiles to RAF bases? And then what? Do we do the same to air force bases in Russia? At what point would Putin stop? Would his own people stop him?

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2022 20:31

@RainbowZebraWarrior

Thread is moving fast as expected, so I'm on catch up. But I agree with this. It may sound OTT, but the Tory party literally have blood on their hands

Careful... you 'll have the Thread de rail police onto you.

Emmelina · 01/03/2022 20:32

@Furries

I know absolutely zero regarding warfare, tactics etc. My very small, and probably misguided, hope regarding the convoy is that they are letting it build up - to get a large amount of Russian vehicles in one place. And that they’ve saved a few drones to make use of once more vehicles are queued up.

Need to find the link, but apparently some electric vehicle charging points along a Russian motorway have been hacked so that the display reads “Putin is a dickhead”!

Here you go with that link Read it earlier, belly-laughed! www.iflscience.com/technology/hackers-make-russian-charging-stations-display-putin-is-a-dickhead-message/
MissConductUS · 01/03/2022 20:33

[quote BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation]@MissConductUS the link is behind a paywall. Please could you summarise what is being said and if there's any reliable intelligence behind it? I keep hoping he's going to croak it 🙏[/quote]
@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

How odd. The Telegraph usually does have a paywall, but for me it's down at the moment. I'm in the US, so possibly it's geo sensitive. Here's the text of the article.

It is all circumstantial but there is growing evidence that Vladimir Putin could be suffering from a serious illness.

At least five factors point to suspicions that his horrendous decision to invade Ukraine could be underpinned not by his mental state, the effects of Covid isolation, or hubris, but by a physical condition that spurred him to gamble on a quick win.

  1. Putin's appearance

The Russian president has appeared notably more bloated around the face and neck recently.

That has led to suggestions he may be undergoing treatment with steroids.

Side effects of steroids include increased risk of infection, like coughs and colds, and "mood and behavioural changes."

"Sometimes, when taken in higher doses, steroids can cause confusion or changes in thinking," according to Macmillan Cancer Support. "This can include having strange or frightening thoughts."

In November 2020 Mr Putin suffered an extended coughing fit during a televised meeting with his finance minister. The footage was later edited and the Kremlin said he was "absolutely fine".

According to Fiona Hill, the British former senior White House expert on Russia, Mr Putin is "not looking so great" at the moment.

Ms Hill, who has met Mr Putin more than once, said: "He’s been rather puffy-faced. We know that he has complained about having back issues. Even if it’s not something worse than that, it could be that he’s taking high doses of steroids, or there may be something else.

"There seems to be an urgency for this [invasion] that may be also driven by personal factors."
Putin
Mr Putin's face has appeared fuller recently Credit: Pool Sputnik Kremlin

  1. The Long Tables

People with weakened immune systems are at higher risk of contracting severe cases of coronavirus, and other infections.

That would include those taking immune-suppressing drugs.

There has been much speculation about why Mr Putin has engaged in such extreme social distancing.

Emmanuel Macron was forced to sit at the other end of a 13ft table.

During a televised meeting Mr Putin's own foreign minister Sergei Lavrov was also seated at the other end of an absurdly long table.

And at a meeting where he humiliated his spy chief Mr Putin's top security officials all had to sit at the other side of a giant marble chamber.
Putin
Extreme social distancing: Mr Macron was not allowed anywhere near Mr Putin Credit: Reuters

Covid cases have soared in Russia recently, but the extraordinary efforts to keep Mr Putin in a "bubble" go back many months.

Many of those entering his presence have been forced to quarantine in hotels for two weeks beforehand, including business leaders, politicians and staff.

There have also been reports of a tunnel leading to his office in which visitors are sprayed with disinfectant.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden, who is a decade older, has been huddling around a relatively small table in the Situation Room elbow-to-elbow with his advisers.

Mr Putin, 69, says he has taken the Sputnik vaccine, but it was not filmed.

His extreme measures to avoid the virus would make sense if he had an underlying condition.

But bizarrely, he did shake hands with - and sit right next to - an unvaccinated Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro a few weeks ago.

  1. The Intelligence

Marco Rubio, the Republican senator, set a hare running at the weekend when he suggested "something is off" with Mr Putin.

Mr Rubio is no random internet conspiracy theorist, he is the senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

As such, he sees classified intelligence, which he can't talk about.

However, he is at liberty to drop hints. And he has.

Mr Rubio said: "I wish I could share more, but for now, I can say it’s pretty obvious to many that something is off with Putin.

"He has always been a killer, but his problem now is different and significant."

Mr Rubio later expanded that Mr Putin "appears to have some neuro/physiological health issues."

He did not give details on what was informing his opinion.
Rubio
Senator Marco Rubio after being briefed on the latest Ukraine information Credit: Reuters

There are growing suggestions that if the US does have intelligence that Mr Putin is sick, they should release it.

A former White House national security official told the Telegraph the US should "make it personal" and release anything it had on Mr Putin.

The French may also have suspicions. The assessment of a French official, following Mr Macron's marathon meeting with Mr Putin before the invasion, hinted at something.

The official was quoted as saying that Mr Putin was "not the same" as when Mr Macron met him two years earlier. He was more rigid and ideological and had, in some respects, "gone haywire".

There has also still been no firm answer as to why Mr Putin disappeared from public view for 10 days in 2015. Speculation about a health scare was dismissed at the time.

  1. Russian academic claims Putin has Parkinson's disease and cancer

In November 2020 Professor Valery Solovei, a former historian at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, was quoted as suggesting Mr Putin may have Parkinson's disease and cancer.

He also suggested that Mr Putin may be poised to quit in 2021 due to fears for his health.

At the time Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said it was “absolute nonsense” and “everything is fine with the president.”

Asked if Mr Putin was planning to step down in the near future, Mr Peskov said: “No”.

Prof Solovei resigned from the institute, where he was head of the public relations department, in 2019, saying "political pressure" was responsible for his departure.

He was later detained at an opposition protest in Moscow.
Peskov
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Mr Putin was "fine" Credit: Reuters

  1. Putin's accelerated timeline

In his mission to restore what he considers lost Russian land, Mr Putin had previously taken a long view.

In 2008 he invaded Georgia in support of the self-proclaimed republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Six years later, he annexed Crimea.

Under changes to the Russian constitution made in early 2021, he could remain president until 2036.

That would give him plenty of time for incremental land grabs, what the West might see as "minor incursions" punishable only with a slap on the wrist.

For those reasons many Putin watchers expected him to adopt "salami tactics," taking Ukraine "slice by slice" over a period of time.

They have been left puzzled as to why he would take such a gamble on capturing the whole of Ukraine, a country of 44 million people, in one go with a force military experts say was not enough.

It only increases the suspicion that, perhaps, his health meant he was running out of time.

HijadelaLuna · 01/03/2022 20:33

First post on here and very impressed by these threads but please do not quote Alice Weidel or the AFD- they are a vile bunch of racists.