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The invasion continues - Thread No.4

999 replies

ChimChimeny · 28/02/2022 17:48

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 19:44

Can anyone blame Ukraine for reaching out to join the EU. To strengthen its partnership with the west.

Terror, chaos and shelling rains down on his country, so he's reaching out to a larger economic force to keep him afloat.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

PeonyRose80 · 28/02/2022 19:44

This is a really interesting thread and appreciate those with obvious knowledge clearly explaining points.

I just saw the Russian Ambassador (possibly) to General Assembly press session and stop mid interview to take a call….! He seemed very flustered after the call and kept talking about 12 delegates but my kids were being noisy so I didn’t see what the “issue” was… does anyone know? It was on BBC news

PeonyRose80 · 28/02/2022 19:45

in a press session

Natsku · 28/02/2022 19:45

My tour guide when I was in Russia explained how he has to change his thinking entirely when he switches to speaking Russian, somehow the language is thought differently.

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 19:46

Thanks @FatFucker I'll look into it (the link in your post doesn't work anymore)

Thereisnolight · 28/02/2022 19:46

I guess there must be a reason why it’s thought to be a good idea that Ukraine applies right now (during peace talks with Russia) to join the EU. Just hoping the plan is thought through.

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 19:48

@Thereisnolight

I said on the previous thread on pg 40 that some Polish colleagues I spoke to are enraged and heading to Poland to join their reserves. They have no interest in diplomacy - they are convinced that they are next and are vv angry and ready to fight. These are people I thought were calm and peaceful. It’s a tinderbox over there - on both sides. I hope things can be resolved by diplomacy. Which Ukraine applying for the EU now really isn’t.
Oh gee, I wonder why Polish people might not be big fans of Russia.
Etinoxaurus · 28/02/2022 19:48

@IBelieveInAThingCalledScience

I never thought I'd see the end of Swiss neutrality!

Amazing.

Yes, this shocked me. Good move but sobering.
Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 19:48

[quote OvaHere]Re language, doublethink and disinformation I watched this earlier which I found in the comments of a Carole Cadwalladr twitter thread posted on the previous thread.

It's from a 2014 Adam Curtis documentary which attempts to explain the concept of 'nonlinear warfare' and Russia.

[/quote] That clip is well worth watching.
BeyondPurpleTulips · 28/02/2022 19:49

ENoeuf - he's not really my type Grin

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 19:49

Ah so if the EU agree, once this is over and Ukraine remains more or less as it is (an assumption i agree) Ukraine would gain access to huge EU rebuilding funds & a new market for EU goods and services....

I hope they get it, though i do not know how it would happen right now.

Igotjelly · 28/02/2022 19:50

It’s breaking news that US diplomats are being expelled from Moscow so could be that @PeonyRose80

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/02/2022 19:50

[quote GallopingHighRoad]@RedToothBrush
Do you think 15% of the population of Ukraine or 7 million people might be willing to die for Ukraine? Given also that Ukrainians formed part of the same Soviet forces in WW2.[/quote]
Sadly, Ukraine is accustomed to losing substantial numbers of its population. The exact figure is contested but Ukraine lost millions of its people during Stalin's terror famine to oppress it— Holodomor. Not only the deaths caused by famine but the harm caused to those who were born with famine-related deficits.

Yes, the famine was widespread but it was exacerbated deliberately in Ukraine and they were blocked from leaving to seek food as well as stripped of their stores.

covetingthepreciousthings · 28/02/2022 19:52

Has there been any update about what Bidens call with the other leaders was about today?

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 19:52

@OvaHere

Zelensky has formally requested. The Independent saying that a motion was published tonight with support of all mainstream political parties and will be voted tomorrow as part of emergency Brussels session. Reporting saying that it’s certain to pass.

Current situation aside do they meet the criteria for EU membership? There are other countries who have been trying to join the EU for a long time. Would a fast track put noses out of joint there?

They do not currently meet the criteria.

Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities, the existence of a functioning market economy as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union. Membership presupposes the candidate's ability to take on the obligations of membership including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

Candidates have to undergo a number of 'inspections' to ensure they have satisfied the criteria.

One of the stumbling blocks will almost certainly be to do with corruption (remember Zelensky stood for president in an anti corruption ticket, and though he has improved things, there is still a problem with that).

Then theres the more obvious point at the moment - that if you are in the midsts of a war, you don't have functional democratic institutions. And you certainly cannot claim to have a functional economy that can withstand market forces.

In principle the EU might see them as a legitimate candidate in the future, it can take years to reach that level.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria
See here for more.

I think one thing thats more interesting in this context is how Bosnia has a strong link to the EU although only having status as a possible future candidate (one step down from candidate status). After the war, the EU poured a lot of cash into the country for rebuilding (they did the same in Serbia). The military overseeing of the Dayton Agreement is by
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Althea
Operation Althea was previously known as the European Union Force Bosnia and Herzegovina (EUFOR). Which was in turn the successor of NATO peacekeeping force. Its in essence an EU protection force to keep the peace although it does include a couple of other nonEU countries (the UK exited it following Brexit).

It does therefore have a strategic and political presence under the sphere of EU influence. If you pop over the border to Serbia theres a heavy Russian influence instead.

So if you couldn't join NATO and EU membership wasn't possible, what existing example, perhaps looks interesting if you were Ukrainian?

Of course, this is still likely to be unpalatable to Putin anyway, but my point is there is something of a halfway house here.

Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 19:53

@Natsku

My tour guide when I was in Russia explained how he has to change his thinking entirely when he switches to speaking Russian, somehow the language is thought differently.
That makes sense to me but I wonder if any posters speak Russian and have the same experience?
timetochangeusername · 28/02/2022 19:53

The thing with applying to the Eu. Could it be to help the negotiations. Each side has to ask for more than their bottom line and then meet in the middle. Ukraine could be neutral, giving up NATO and EU plans (for a set period ), Russia gives up the war and can claim victory. But they need to show that they've won something and could the EU bid be part of allowing Putin to back away with (some) dignity ?

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 19:53

@TheSillyMastiff don't apologise for being pedantic!

I thought you'd appreciate this photo : )

The invasion continues - Thread No.4
TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 19:54

It would appear that the "volunteer force" is gaining traction in the UK. Men with no military experience and very few of Ukrainian heritage

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-britons-willing-to-die-to-defeat-putins-army-as-volunteers-prepare-to-travel-to-fight-russian-invasion-12554220

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 19:56

[quote dreamingbohemian]@TheSillyMastiff don't apologise for being pedantic!

I thought you'd appreciate this photo : )[/quote]
🤣🤣🤣 Volvo...having been the owner of a ancient Volvo estate, I can say in all honesty...tank. reversed that thing in to so many bollards and lamposts and it didn't even dent!

Damnloginpopup · 28/02/2022 19:57

[quote ChimChimeny]Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled[/quote]
Thanks for continuing the threads for me (I went to sleep at 920 posts around 4ish, back on shift tonight)..I wasn't sure I'd be awake in time and clearly I wasn't by a long chalk. Now to catch up with the expected excellence of the predecessors. Thanks all!

PeonyRose80 · 28/02/2022 19:57

Thank you @Igotjelly makes sense.

OvaHere · 28/02/2022 19:57

Thanks for the explanation Red

So the EU could grant them future legitimate status which would still be enough to aid rebuilding even if they don't accept them for membership now?

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 28/02/2022 19:58

@timetochangeusername

The thing with applying to the Eu. Could it be to help the negotiations. Each side has to ask for more than their bottom line and then meet in the middle. Ukraine could be neutral, giving up NATO and EU plans (for a set period ), Russia gives up the war and can claim victory. But they need to show that they've won something and could the EU bid be part of allowing Putin to back away with (some) dignity ?
That's what I'm hoping.
ENoeuf · 28/02/2022 19:59

I have a question (which I’ve asked elsewhere but no reply I think) - how long with no military support can Ukraine survive and unless Putin withdraws are we just waiting until It falls? It feels incredibly voyeuristic in a way.

And to pp re: reading the threads before posting, I did skim through and I think I was on the first one but there are so many about Ukraine I wanted to check these were the continuing more serious ones.

Swipe left for the next trending thread