The invasion continues - Thread No.4

[ChimChimeny]

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

That is indeed very interesting if Belarus is now saying their military won't be joining in. They're also being threatened with sanctions.

*So annexing isnt a war act?

I get the point about bias, but ffs, thats some proper lack of critical thinking going on.

Annexing part of someone else's country is about as hostile as it gets!*

Frankly, if you can't google and understand why Russia annexed Crimea, I won't bother.

Crimea was ALWAYS a Russian territory given as a gift to the Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. 99% of Crimean population are Russian and have always considered themselves Russian.

I know that my posts are not what many want to hear but for crying out loud, do some critical thinking and research.

@CaveMum Ooooor....he's not actually throwing everything he has at this, because this Ukrainian war was never his real objective. It's just a pretence and excuse to goad NATO onto a battlefield from where he can frame legitimate reason to retaliate.

@Alondra

*So annexing isnt a war act?

I get the point about bias, but ffs, thats some proper lack of critical thinking going on.

Annexing part of someone else's country is about as hostile as it gets!*

Frankly, if you can't google and understand why Russia annexed Crimea, I won't bother.

Crimea was ALWAYS a Russian territory given as a gift to the Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. 99% of Crimean population are Russian and have always considered themselves Russian.

I know that my posts are not what many want to hear but for crying out loud, do some critical thinking and research.

Could you answer if you think Putin is justified in his actions

Today 09:38 continu

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend
Russia asked for ceasefire discussions because of pressure from their closest partners, not sanctions.

Did you mean Ukraine? As I’ve seen/read absolutely nothing that Russia has asked for a ceasefire while Ukraine has…. yet Russia is still bombing civilians!
@HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend No, Russia called for the current ceasefire negotiations. Last night both sides wanted the talks to continue. It is something to be very hopeful about.

That’s what I’m really struggling with, why bother with the ceasefire negotiations if they are still continuing the war…. Ukraine asked for immediate ceasefire while the negotiations took place yet here we seeing destructions of shopping centres (where civilians took shelter) and illegal bombs being used not even an hour after they requested the negations continue?

It's not "the end of days". There have been horrific wars in various parts of the world pretty much continually over decades, this one is just more noticable to us western Europeans because it is closer to us, the people look and live more like we do, and we have many people from the region living in our countries.

I have been annoyed by the talk from some about this being the "first war" on European soil since WWII. Has everyone forgotten Yugoslavia? Guess so.

This war is awful, and deplorable, and everyone should do whatever they can to help, both politically and practically, to diminish the effects and Russia's position (including DON'T VOTE TORY), but it is not Armageddon.

@TokyoSushi

The fact that not as much as I expected to happen, is happening, is making me uneasy. I expected that Russia would have gone in hard and fast, a bit like 'shock and awe' in Iraq.

This all just seems really weird. Almost half-hearted. Is it incompetence? Was it a massive bluff and they don't have the equipment/power/expertise that they said that they have? Are they biding their time and then going to massively go for it? Are they meeting more resistance than they thought? Are they surprised about the strength of feeling from the west? What is the convoy doing? Why aren't they really going in from the air? Usually, I have a fairly good idea of how things are going to turn out, but I just can't figure this one out, I know that I don't like it though.

The only thing I can think of (and I really have no idea, so complete speculation) is that is seems like Putin's strategy was/is to keep the Russian people in the dark. He didn't prepare them for war, he keeps insisting it is called a "special operation" and from what the news says, there is a serious attempt to tell the Russian people what is happening it isn't happening. Maybe going in with "shock and awe" would be too hard to hide, and he still thinks he can hide from the Russian people? Just guessing.

@continu

I don't agree with you at all

What part?
Putin isn't going to agree to a ceasefire before he has got what he wants and the Ukrainians cannot defeat him on their own, they are already running out of food and weapons and our re supplies are very limited in getting into where they are needed - Kyiv is surrounded on 3 sides.

..and should the Russians use heavy weapons, then there will be huge loss of life and we will have to decide to stand back and watch or attack Russian forces..

Putin is one of the richest men in the world, he will not care about the suffering of ordinary Russians, so the only way out of this is he is overthrown by the people around/beneath him OR he gets what he wants and we muddling along.

@Alondra

*So annexing isnt a war act?

I get the point about bias, but ffs, thats some proper lack of critical thinking going on.

Annexing part of someone else's country is about as hostile as it gets!*

Frankly, if you can't google and understand why Russia annexed Crimea, I won't bother.

Crimea was ALWAYS a Russian territory given as a gift to the Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. 99% of Crimean population are Russian and have always considered themselves Russian.

I know that my posts are not what many want to hear but for crying out loud, do some critical thinking and research.

Oh please.

If Russia wanted Crimea back they should have negotiated for it when the USSR broke up. But they didn't and the border between Russia and Ukraine was established in international law.

At that point it became illegal for Russia to cross that border and take any territory. See Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, the bedrock of international law.

Your argument is a political argument that Putin makes but you cannot deny that the annexation violated international law and constitutes illegal aggression by Russia.

@Febrier

As an empath...

Oh for goodness sake!

You said what I was thinking Febrier. You'd have to be a psychopath to not be moved by the human toll.

This feels like the calm before the storm with the advancing Russian column.

@LampLighter414

As an empath I've really struggled this last week with the constant negative news cycle. I've been in tears at the reports of shelling of hospitals, missiles hitting apartment blocks and clips of dead soldiers and a Ukranian father being shot whilst his son takes cover behind the car. What is this world coming to? I see a lot of religious people on social media saying its the beginning of the end of days. I'm not religious, but I'm wondering if it could be true?

I remember the news cycle for Bosnia before 24 rolling news. Its not a lot different to that in terms of the human impact of war.

Its the news cycle thats changed, together with wider availability of footage thanks to camera phones and social media. Not the nature of war. We are simply seeing more of it. Its harder to avoid and separate yourself from it, especially when threats about nukes are being made.

Your reaction is normal. You are seeing more than is probably healthy - i suspect ptsd from this is a possibility even from your living room. It brings the front lines into our homes in ways we are not used to, particularly because so many Ukrainians have established ties with other Europeans so pictures are circulating within the same media and social bubbles we are used to (unlike perhaps other recent wars).

My coping strategy is to inform myself. I don't think it works for everyone.

@UKRAINEwearewithyou
Do their people really believe what they are being told. Surely the internet means that the real truth does leak into the country?

You could say the same for virtually any conflict. Similarly we in the West are generally fed a pack of lies about any conflict involving our troops. Though of course as we are letting Ukraine's military face the might of Russia alone, that is less necessary this time.

@dreamingbohemian
but you cannot deny that the annexation violated international law and constitutes illegal aggression by Russia.

Why should Russia concern itself with "international law" when its rivals do not?

Do their people really believe what they are being told. Surely the internet means that the real truth does leak into the country?

Listening to FT correspondent in Russia no they don’t atm. Especially in Moscow, many do not want this war.

Has everyone forgotten Yugoslavia? Guess so.

Thats been on my mind a lot recently.

But it was 30 years ago. Lots of people just wont remember it. I was only 11 / 12 when it started. Croatia is a holiday destination not a former warzone these days.

@LampLighter414

As an empath I've really struggled this last week with the constant negative news cycle. I've been in tears at the reports of shelling of hospitals, missiles hitting apartment blocks and clips of dead soldiers and a Ukranian father being shot whilst his son takes cover behind the car. What is this world coming to? I see a lot of religious people on social media saying its the beginning of the end of days. I'm not religious, but I'm wondering if it could be true?

Jesus wept, the “empaths” have arrived. I’m so glad I’m not an empath, so I don’t give a shit when I see children with cancer in Ukrainian hospital basements. This really REALLY is not All About You, @LampLighter414

Maybe the stalling of the convoy, and the way it’s exposed in the way that it is, is to try and draw a response from NATO to give Putin the excuse he needs to really escalate things.

Or maybe it has just stalled, literally. I don’t know, just thinking out loud.

What does "as an empath" mean? We are all horrified by the images and videos coming out of ukraine. You don't need to give yourself a special label because you're upset by it.

Thanks all. Is this part of the Uks contribution , and which country’s planes are being refuelled? Don’t they land for refuelling purposes usually? Glad of all the experts here

Pretty sure this was answered above but some fighter jets are capable of refuelling in the air so the tankers fly round in an oval pattern and the jets approach to refuel via a long nozzle that comes off the tanker. It's pretty cool.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling

Everyone saying bomb the convoy from the air, if you have limited air resources like Ukraine has you don't fly them in to a well guarded and exposed area to be shot down. That convoy contains anti air weapons. You don't want to loose your remaining MIG's to take out at best 20% of a convoy. Knowing it will just be replaced.

You can bottle neck it and use mortar attacks once they are moving. But Ukrain would have to get a mortar platoon within drop range. Again not easily when your entire army is spread out over such a vast geographical area, you can't give up in the south and mobilise to the north. There are still civilians in those areas that require defence. They might be waiting for Estonia's delivery of German manufactured artillery to do this.

Could you answer if you think Putin is justified in his actions

Could you answer if the US was justified in detonating the atomic bomb in Japan?

Could you justify the US using biological warfare agent Orange in Vietnam?

Could you justify the assassination of Allende in Chile by US commandos to put one of biggest murderers, Pinochet, in power?

Can you justify the intervention in Iraq under the threat of mass distruction that never were?

I don't want wars. I detest wars. The only people who suffer in wars is the little people, all of us. We pay for them with our taxes and lives - the ones playing the chess game, Putin or Biden, don't give a fuck about us.

But when you ask me if Putin is justified in his actions, you are being part of the same fucking propaganda machine that's at the bottom of this war.

[quote Cam77]@dreamingbohemian
but you cannot deny that the annexation violated international law and constitutes illegal aggression by Russia.

Why should Russia concern itself with "international law" when its rivals do not?[/quote]
I think the argument was about whether Ukraine make a hostile act rather than whats legal and within international law.

It does come down to a who started it after a long period of settled status and peace.

I don't particularly care for our own military track record for various reasons but the whole he/she started it thing is a total strawman argument here.

Its not worth engaging with imho.

@Febrier

As an empath...

Oh for goodness sake!

Quite.

Lukashenko promises Belarus won't send their own troops into Ukraine.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/belarus-leader-says-minsk-wont-join-russian-operation-ukraine-belta-reports-2022-03-01/

Then the lying bastard does just that.

www.google.com/amp/s/en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/804430-amp.html

The longer this goes on the more likely he is to start exploring ways to hit back at the sanctions and economic strains placed on Russia. What if his revenge wasn’t a nuclear attack but a cyber one? Taking out or severely damaging the internet would inflict enough chaos to society and economies that nuclear war wouldn’t be necessary.

Re: the convoy surely they would be better off blockading the roads it will travel along and blowing up any remaining bridges. Makes access for humanitarian purposes difficult though, really need some humanitarian corridors established in Ukraine.