The invasion continues - Thread No.4

[ChimChimeny]

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

@alltheapples

What was a useful thread now has a lot of disinformation on it as pro Russian posts distort the facts.

No, it’s just not an echo chamber that’s all. Feel free to counteract any pro-Russian posts with verified information. The less Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker narrative and more open debate and communication and education and understanding from all sides, the better. No one has said that Putin is their hero.

Some of us are capable of knowing that Russia and Ukraine both have a very complex history without making excuses for Putin's appalling act.

No excuses for Putin. He's a war criminal.

It is possible to be critical of both Russia and the West you know!!

@alltheapples

What was a useful thread now has a lot of disinformation on it as pro Russian posts distort the facts.

The first casualty of war is truth. There will be distortion of facts and propaganda from all sides. I am trying to read widely from different sources to try to get at the facts, but it is very complex.

Feel free to counteract any pro-Russian posts with verified information

Has Russia launched an attack on a neighbouring country, firing heavy weapons into cities causing many casualties?

Did they say they weren't going to invade?

Have young Russian men been sent to fight a war against a people who don't want to be 'liberated' and who are prepared to fight to the death to defend their country?

@Thereisnolight some of it has been pointed out as inaccurate. But others include the assertion that Zelensky released prisoners.
The implication is that he released all prisoners, that is not true. He released some prisoners with military experience who agreed to fight against the Russians.

Moving on, I don't think there is any way back for Putin on the international stage. Even if he ordered a full withdrawal tonight (he won't, sadly) or even if some sort of peace deal is cobbled together because the alternative is so terrible, the damage is irrevocable, no one will trust him again. I'm not sure where that leaves Russia as a country if he remains in charge.

It was claimed that these released prisoners are now in gangs robbing and shooting people. I have followed this situation very closely and have not seen that allegation anywhere else, or any evidence this is true.

@BeyondPurpleTulips I know right!

I agree NATO is playing a very bold game here

Its members are sending lethal weapons, fighter jets, ammunition, and volunteers into the conflict zone, on top of all the sanctions and travel restrictions and everything else. Of course it's all legal (collective self-defence) but it's incredibly provocative.

Perhaps they feel emboldened by how hapless the Russian invasion has been so far. They may be thinking Russia can't do anything serious to them with conventional forces and wouldn't dare go nuclear. US/NATO intelligence was pretty accurate in the leadup to invasion, perhaps they are seeing things we're not.

And it might be the right call. Appeasing Putin all these years hasn't worked either.

@CPL593H

Moving on, I don't think there is any way back for Putin on the international stage. Even if he ordered a full withdrawal tonight (he won't, sadly) or even if some sort of peace deal is cobbled together because the alternative is so terrible, the damage is irrevocable, no one will trust him again. I'm not sure where that leaves Russia as a country if he remains in charge.

Quite

What is the end game for Russia?
Sanctions won't go away.
Russia has lost the trust of many people in many countries.

I hope that this is a turning point for countries with the way they deal with other countries and turn a blind eye to the behaviour in those countries. It may well be.

@cakeorwine

Feel free to counteract any pro-Russian posts with verified information

Has Russia launched an attack on a neighbouring country, firing heavy weapons into cities causing many casualties?

Did they say they weren't going to invade?

Have young Russian men been sent to fight a war against a people who don't want to be 'liberated' and who are prepared to fight to the death to defend their country?

Except around 15-20% of Ukrainian nationals are ethnically Russian and probably do want to be liberated, especially since they've undergone years of persecution by a both a Western-backed government and neo-Nazi militias, had their homes bombed out and loved ones killed.

That doesn't justify a Russian invasion. But the US and UK have invaded countries on much lesser pretexts.

It's complicated.

@CPL593H

Moving on, I don't think there is any way back for Putin on the international stage. Even if he ordered a full withdrawal tonight (he won't, sadly) or even if some sort of peace deal is cobbled together because the alternative is so terrible, the damage is irrevocable, no one will trust him again. I'm not sure where that leaves Russia as a country if he remains in charge.

Totally agree

Even if he did pull out now ( which he won't do) , It can't be the same for him anymore

He underestimated the resistance this time around and never expected the backing 🇺🇦 currently has .

He's probably disorientated at the moment and using aggressive attacks at the moment to cover up his show of shame

Ultra Right / Nazi / White Supremacist foreign fighters in Ukraine.

Sure, there have been some on both sides. The Soufan Center has looked at things like foreigners heading off to fight in Jihadist conflicts. They have also looked at the Ultra Rightists in the Donbas conflict in Ukraine. Also they find links between the two (see for instance pages 28+ in the report below). Their figures suggest that more have been attracted to the Russian / 'separatist' side actually rather than the Ukrainian.

thesoufancenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Report-by-The-Soufan-Center-White-Supremacy-Extremism-The-Transnational-Rise-of-The-Violent-White-Supremacist-Movement.pdf

Azov Battalion is of course politically an embarrassment. Foreign fighters were joining it from 2014 on.

I suspect that those foreigners thinking of joining Zelensky's International Legion have a range of motivations that generally do not match that of the niche volunteers on both sides in 2014/5.

Russia has lost the trust of many people in many countries.

I can see them allying with China and us reverting to a bi-polar world system. The Chinese are largely supportive of their latest actions. It could be Cold War 2.0.

@Rocaille

The truth is Russia invaded and is currently killing Ukrainian people. Ukrainian people don't want the Russians in THEIR country and are defending themselves.

Most of the world are appalled at what they are watching and so are sanctioning Russia and hoping the sanctions will stop Russians from killing civilians. The rest of the world cannot put soldiers in since the Russian leader needs no excuse to escalate to nuclear. He appears mad.

Appalling that people actually defend what Putin has done to the Ukraine.

So @Rocaille says that 15-20% 'PROBABLY' want to be be liberated.

Evidence for this? If true, do the 80-85% not matter then. The leader of Ukraine is a Jew and for Putin (a dictator who doesn't even allow free press) to call him a Nazi is offensive and ridiculous.

Appalling that people actually defend what Putin has done to the Ukraine.

Not defending it, just trying to understand why it has happened and what role our Western governments have played in this unfolding crisis.

@UKRAINEwearewithyou

So *@Rocaille* says that 15-20% 'PROBABLY' want to be be liberated.

Evidence for this? If true, do the 80-85% not matter then. The leader of Ukraine is a Jew and for Putin (a dictator who doesn't even allow free press) to call him a Nazi is offensive and ridiculous.

The evidence is in the result of referendum that was held. At this time of night, I can't quote that with any accuracy, which is why I said probably.

Please note I did notesay Zelensky is a Nazi. From what I can see, he is styling himself as a Western-style liberal.

I'm not sure why you think that any concern for the Ukrainian ethnic minorities diminishes the status of the majority of Ukrainians. Of course they matter.

www.france24.com/en/20180226-putin-praises-achievements-ultra-nationalist-writer

In case anyone thinks Ukraine has the monopoly on ultra right thought in all this. Alexander Prokhanov also made a hagiographic documentary on Putin (in 5 parts)

Also worth a read

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/vladimir-putin-ukraine-attack-antisemitism-denazify

In the meantime, President Zelensky is still Jewish, with family who were murdered in the Holocaust.

Who is bombing civilians? Who has sent tanks and troops into another country? Who has killed children? Who has caused tens of thousands to flee their homes?

@Ncwinc

Who is bombing civilians? Who has sent tanks and troops into another country? Who has killed children? Who has caused tens of thousands to flee their homes?

Indeed.

Putin has imprisoned political opponents. He has sent assassins to poison his critics. He has interfered in elections and votes in the US and the U.K.. He has shut down critical publications and had journalists attacked, arrested and imprisoned. He has now sent troops into another country and bombed their cities.

He is a dictator. He is a thug. He is a war criminal.

@Ncwinc

Putin has imprisoned political opponents. He has sent assassins to poison his critics. He has interfered in elections and votes in the US and the U.K.. He has shut down critical publications and had journalists attacked, arrested and imprisoned. He has now sent troops into another country and bombed their cities.

He is a dictator. He is a thug. He is a war criminal.

This.

The 17 miles of Russian troops lined up ready to go towards Kyiv is now 40 miles according to reports.

I have a certain sense of dread at that.

Plus what are they waiting for? Are where is the Russian airforce? Its bizarre.

@Rocaille

Ukraine is just as much of an aggressor as it is the victim.

I believe this. I also believe that the West bears a large part of the responsibility for this crisis. We've been up to our usual tactics of deposing uncongenial leaders and propping up Western-friendly puppet regimes via vast amounts of military aid and hot air concerning 'democracy' and 'human rights' (whilst assiduously ignoring any violations of these values that don't fit the narrative). Typical arrogant puffed up sabre-rattling on the part of US, EU, UK, NATO, etc. They've egged Ukraine on to poke the bear and now war breaks out and they're nowhere to be seen, abandoning the people they claimed to care so much about.

Tosh.