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The Invasion Has Stalled

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 27/02/2022 18:07

So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
skodadoda · 28/02/2022 14:47

@spleencoffin

Does Putin have a wife? Children?
Yes, but no doubt they’re somewhere safe and can’t make him see reason
Igotjelly · 28/02/2022 14:48

Russians struggling to pay for their Netflix accounts. If anything is going to piss you off this is it!

Wannago · 28/02/2022 14:50

[quote Alexandra2001]@Wannago Russia changed their laws on nuclear use a few years ago, basically they can use them if facing a overwhelming conventional force.
This is why words very much matter.[/quote]
So what you are saying is that Russia unilaterally changed the law so it can use nuclear weapons even if attacked by conventional forces, - but apparently that is not just conventional forces, but "overwhelming" conventional forces, and they trust Liz Truss to be the one to co-ordinate and authorise those overwhelming conventional forces - which they have to be "faced with", and so what she says and how careful she is makes such a huge difference?
Doesn't that seem mad? It might well be that if they want to use nuclear forces, they will use them, and if they don't they won't. They have already said they are so terrified of Nato that they have invaded the Ukraine to support their "security" concerns and they don't care what they have previously agreed with anybody else, so why would they care what Liz Truss says one way or the other? Their intelligence must really be very poor if they think what she says matters that much. If they want to use nuclear forces they can justify them, based on this law, just on the basis that NATO exists. And if they need more than that, and actually have to have overwhelming conventional forces, surely at least some of those have to be on the move? And from countries that actually could provide them? Britain could not provide overwhelming conventional forces if we all joined up tomorrow. And Britain does not speak for Europe, or the US. Surely this is really giving Britain far more influence than anything the most extreme Brexiteer ever claimed (sorry ot bring in Brexit, but you see my point)?

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 14:51

The EU is changing at lightning speed

No comment ...

MakeUsACuppa · 28/02/2022 14:51

Sadly I don't think Putin was ever going to go into peace talks with an open mind.

He has one goal and given he is a total megalomaniac I doubt other than him being taken out nothing with stop him. I just can't see how else this will be resolved.

Igotjelly · 28/02/2022 14:52

Sky news reporting that talks are in face still ongoing

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 14:54

Actually it is very common in 'peace talks' to try to shore up your own side as much as possible, so you can negotiate from a position of strength.

The Bosnian war in the 1990s, for example -- people tend to think it was ended because of this amazing diplomatic effort with the Dayton accords, but the most important factor was the late Bosniak-Croat offensive that retook lots of territory from Serb forces and encouraged them to end the fighting before things got any worse for them.

DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 14:56

Switzerland has announced that it will forego its commitment to “Swiss neutrality” in favor of adopting sanctions against Russia, Swiss Federal President Ignazio Cassis said Monday, adding that Switzerland’s sanctions will be in line with those already adopted by the European Union.

Pernot165 · 28/02/2022 15:02

What outcomes are likely from the peace talks? Does anybody think Ukraine will back down? If they do, what then?

He isn't going to accept anything that doesn't allow him to emerge from this having 'won' in his countries eyes.

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 15:03

@DuncinToffee

Switzerland has announced that it will forego its commitment to “Swiss neutrality” in favor of adopting sanctions against Russia, Swiss Federal President Ignazio Cassis said Monday, adding that Switzerland’s sanctions will be in line with those already adopted by the European Union.
Well they've still got stashes of Nazi gold ....
TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 15:09

@Pernot165

What outcomes are likely from the peace talks? Does anybody think Ukraine will back down? If they do, what then?

He isn't going to accept anything that doesn't allow him to emerge from this having 'won' in his countries eyes.

Ukraine want a ceasefire and removal of Russian troops that's the red line they won't cross, but do they do so with promises of neutrality e.g no EU membership and no NATO. Like Moldova?

Can't see them agreeing to this as it still leaves them vulnerable now from future invasions. They might go Half's say no NATO but EU membership.

Russia won't accept that so round and round we go. Russia does not want any western influence in Ukraine it wants it in the "sphere" of Moscow.

PilatesPeach · 28/02/2022 15:11

Everything apart from capitulation seems to inflame Putin

BigHuff · 28/02/2022 15:14

@Pernot165

What outcomes are likely from the peace talks? Does anybody think Ukraine will back down? If they do, what then?

He isn't going to accept anything that doesn't allow him to emerge from this having 'won' in his countries eyes.

My hope is that Putin would end the war if Ukraine agreed to remain neutral -i.e. to not join NATO or the EU. How long both sides would be happy with that status quo is another question.

Besides, given the united front against Russia that Europe has displayed, this may no longer be enough for Putin.

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 15:15

@PilatesPeach

Everything apart from capitulation seems to inflame Putin
He's like a tempremental hemorrhoid on the arse of Europe isn't he....
LetsGoDoDoDo · 28/02/2022 15:15

The EU are providing intelligence to Ukraine...

twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1498314321138491392?t=XavqOhVt-4pOi-K9ldUi_w&s=19

HeadPain · 28/02/2022 15:18

Peace talks = do what I want or I keep bombing you

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 15:21

I don't think Ukraine would agree to absolute neutrality but even if they did, it does not solve the conflict. Russia has occupied and recognised the people's republics in the East. Unless they reverse that and Putin won't the conflict will not end. To say nothing about Crimea, although that is more of a lost cause.

Diplomacy is not just about finding compromises, it can also be about persuading an opponent that their costs will just continue to rise as long as they persevere. It may get to the point that Putin will fear losing power unless he ends the war -- that might be enough to sway him. That is the message that should be conveyed.

Ripepear · 28/02/2022 15:24

I am struggling to undertwhy Ukraine are wanting immediately to join the eu. Is this likely to help the situation?

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 15:30

Assuming Ukrainian neutrality is even on the cards, what they face is far far worse than neutrality.

The real issue is whether Putin is trust worthy & we know the answer to that.

so as i said before the invasion, neutrality, russian forces move back say 100km, promise that Ukraine will be given nato membership if they break this.
Russian disputed territories would prob have to be given to Russia :(

BreadInCaptivity · 28/02/2022 15:41

@Pernot165

What outcomes are likely from the peace talks? Does anybody think Ukraine will back down? If they do, what then?

He isn't going to accept anything that doesn't allow him to emerge from this having 'won' in his countries eyes.

I think it's incredibly difficult to predict.

Firstly there's an assumption that the talks are being held in good faith i.e. that both parties are committed to finding a solution and it's far from certain that Russia is operating under that presumption.

Having said that, I think Putin anticipated being in a very different situation to where he is now.

His two big problems are the scale of the international response (such as unprecedented announcements from the EU and Switzerland) which he couldn't have predicted and the determination of the Ukrainian people to resist.

It's one thing to take a country by military force and quite another to keep it when the population is heavily motivated to defend their independence.

The idea that Putin intended to sweep in an install a pro-Russian regime in govt can't be verified but it's a likely scenario.

But what now? It's clear the population isn't going to quietly roll over and see Putin's stooges run the country and as sanctions start to cut deep it's unknown just how long Russia can afford to keep fighting this war and just how much pressure (in the face of massive financial losses) his pet Oligarchs are going to put on him to back off.

Realistically, Putin should have started to realise that he's bitten off more than he can chew and that the cost of keeping fighting is one that's going to be very heavy - too heavy - to continue.

But, he's Putin and his mindset isn't measurable by western standards and he's personally well insulted from any fallout. Loss of face is not something he will contemplate regardless of the cost.

So it remains to be seen what Ukraine can offer that he'd be willing to accept and I think there's nothing on the table that is going to be palatable to both parties.

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 15:41

You may want to read this thread, explaining a Russian announcement that was mistakenly published Saturday (probably in anticipation of swift victory):

twitter.com/Tom_deWaal/status/1498310064117059585?s=20&t=QmnZoDMjtVYf9swTgx_S8g

Reading this, it is difficult to see how Putin will back down, or how any compromise can be found.

Igotjelly · 28/02/2022 15:46

@dreamingbohemian

You may want to read this thread, explaining a Russian announcement that was mistakenly published Saturday (probably in anticipation of swift victory):

twitter.com/Tom_deWaal/status/1498310064117059585?s=20&t=QmnZoDMjtVYf9swTgx_S8g

Reading this, it is difficult to see how Putin will back down, or how any compromise can be found.

I find the reference to the Ukrainian problem particularly chilling. Don’t we know someone who claimed to have a “Jewish problem” Angry
SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 28/02/2022 15:48

It's all going on in the UN General Assembly - live from Sky News.

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