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The Invasion Has Stalled

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 27/02/2022 18:07

So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 14:21

@Alexandra2001

Marsha everyone from Stoltenberg to Biden have said similar, in equally as strong terms, of course i'm with that, aren't we all.

But no one else has also said is we want nato citizens fighting in Ukraine nor said invading a non nato country will bring about a nato v russian war.
did you notice the yanks (or Wallace) haven't turned around and said "our nukes are going on standby too"

Its called diplomacy.

Exactly it’s all been said. And actually others have said similar about the fighting

And yes we should draw the line re non NATO country. Didn’t you want to line the troops up at the borders at one point Confused I’m pretty sure you posted that a few times

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 14:21

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Where did you see that alex?
Did you mean on nuke use? www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/06/02/new-russian-policy-allows-use-of-atomic-weapons-against-non-nuclear-strike/
LifesABotch · 28/02/2022 14:22

@vera99

From, behind the Time's paywalls basically saying these 'peace' talks are all just smoke and mirrors.

More than 400 Russian mercenaries are operating in Kyiv with orders from the Kremlin to assassinate President Zelensky and his government and prepare the ground for Moscow to take control, The Times has learnt.

The Wagner Group, a private militia run by one of President Putin’s closest allies and operating as an arm-length branch of the state, flew in mercenaries from Africa five weeks ago on a mission to decapitate Zelensky’s government in return for a handsome financial bonus.
Information about their mission reached the Ukrainian government on Saturday morning and hours later Kyiv declared a 36-hour “hard” curfew to sweep the city for Russian saboteurs, warning civilians that they would be seen as Kremlin agents and risked being “liquidated” if they stepped outside.

A source closely connected to the group’s activities confirmed that a total of between 2,000 and 4,000 mercenaries had arrived in Ukraine in January. Some were deployed to the disputed eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Another 400 entered from Belarus and made their way to the capital.

The mercenaries have been told that Putin wants a brief pause to show that he is negotiating with Zelensky, but assured them that no deal would be reached and that the effort would be simply “smoke and mirrors”, according to a source close to senior members of the Wagner Group.

Zelensky agreed yesterday to send a delegation to meet a Russian team at the Belarus border but expressed scepticism about Moscow’s seriousness.
The mercenaries are awaiting a signal from the Kremlin and have been promised hefty bonuses for killings in the next few days and safe passage out of Ukraine before the end of the week.

In addition to Zelensky their hit list contains 23 other figures, including the prime minister, the cabinet, the mayor of Kyiv, Vitali Klitschko and his brother Wladimir, both popular former boxing champions who have joined the military fight against the invaders.
The mercenaries boast of knowing exactly where the president and his colleagues are in Kyiv and are apparently able to track them via their mobile phones. After Moscow invaded last week, Zelensky addressed the nation, claiming that Russian special forces were in the capital searching for him as “target No 1”. Offered the chance by America to flee, he said: “I need ammunition, not a ride.”

Sad bloody hell
Keepyourheadscrewedon · 28/02/2022 14:24

The peace talks ending alex where did you see it? Can you link please?

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 14:25

And yes we should draw the line re non NATO country. Didn’t you want to line the troops up at the borders at one point confused I’m pretty sure you posted that a few times

So you agree Truss was wrong - Good, lets move on.

Of course, we are doing so, especially the Americans, i don't think i have read anyone saying to the contrary.

I've always been a big believer in strong conventional forces and i'm v critical of using pensions and foreign aid to get us up to the 2% gdp promise.

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 14:26

@Alexandra2001

And yes we should draw the line re non NATO country. Didn’t you want to line the troops up at the borders at one point confused I’m pretty sure you posted that a few times

So you agree Truss was wrong - Good, lets move on.

Of course, we are doing so, especially the Americans, i don't think i have read anyone saying to the contrary.

I've always been a big believer in strong conventional forces and i'm v critical of using pensions and foreign aid to get us up to the 2% gdp promise.

Er are you reading your own posts not mine? Confused

I didn’t say she was wrong. I said we should be clear on where we draw the line and say it.

newrubylane · 28/02/2022 14:26

@CallyfromBlakes7

I don't know why everyone is going on about Liz Truss.

Vladimir Putin put Russia's nuclear forces on high alert after comments by UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss and others, the Kremlin has said

and others

I've taken that from a UK source, so they've obviously mentioned Liz Truss. No doubt the German media would refer to Baerbeck etc.

As if a sexist madman like Putin gives a fig about Liz Truss especially.

Putin's spokesman did actually name her (by her job title not by name).
dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 14:26

This is a good article explaining Russian nuclear doctrine:

www.armscontrol.org/act/2020-07/news/russia-releases-nuclear-deterrence-policy

The short version is that Russia would use nukes either in response to a WMD attack or a conventional attack that threatened the existence of the Russian state.

Other scenarios where they might possibly use nuclear weapons are a bit more ambiguous (this is normal).

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 14:28

With GPS up the swanee, it would be trivial for an "accidental" Russian straying into a NATO country by just a few feet. Then it's ball back in our court.

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 14:28

And I will add if you think you can line the borders with NATO troops and it’s less provocative than a statement - not worded for delicate ears but correct - then that’s is pretty flimsy.

LaDoIceVita · 28/02/2022 14:30

@Alexandra2001

I don't want to live in a world like that - I'd rather go out in a nuclear strike. Tact and diplomacy can sometimes bring about successful resolutions, appeasement and giving in to bullies never does

You might want too but i don't and neither do 8 billion others.

I wouldn't agree with your figure of 8 billion. I've seen plenty of people around the world expressing the same opinion as me in the last 24 hours. And I didn't actually say I 'wanted' a nuclear strike, rather that I see it as preferable to a specific alternative. I didn't think that what I said was particularly difficult to understand.
AweSoupSome · 28/02/2022 14:30

I hope Nato is not going to let Ukraine join at this present moment in time.

StormzyinaTCup · 28/02/2022 14:31

But Truss is a woman and the Russians have form with belittling women leaders, Merkel, VDL... so you don't go around encouraging him.

Yes they do and that was the point I was making in my earlier posts, UVDL announcing yesterday that they are supplying military jets to Ukraine and today discussing the possibility of fast tracking them into the EU is also inflaming things with Putin surely. How is that any different from Liz Truss if we are talking about needing a softly softly approach. Or am I missing something?

Thereisnolight · 28/02/2022 14:32

@AweSoupSome

I hope Nato is not going to let Ukraine join at this present moment in time.
Agreed. That would be ridiculously provocative and I very much raise an eyebrow if Zelensky is suggesting that.
TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 14:33

@AweSoupSome

I hope Nato is not going to let Ukraine join at this present moment in time.
They can't, they can't allow any nation that is under threat join as it could be seen as inviting conflict in to NATO.

Ukraine is at war, so it definitely can not join.

Igotjelly · 28/02/2022 14:35

Russia’s number 1 Tennis star has spoken out against the war. Brave woman!

vera99 · 28/02/2022 14:36

An interesting take from an FT pundit Alan Beattie

Ukraine, the new world order and the EU’s role

I’m writing this from Germany. There’s no better place to observe how a new European and international order is being changed in a crisis.

Before the invasion, the 1970s Ostpolitik line of engagement rather than confrontation with Russia had a powerful pull. I found a hugely entertaining interview in the New York Times in 1982 headlined “Helmut’s Pipeline”, in which the NYT’s resident conservative William Safire berated the then chancellor Helmut Schmidt of the Social Democratic party for making Germany dependent on Soviet Russian gas. You can still argue engagement with Moscow was the right idea during the cold war, but it was horrendously ill-suited to Putin’s aggressive Russian nationalism, indeed imperialism. Now Olaf Scholz, an SPD chancellor only a couple of months into office, has overturned decades of German certainties.

The EU is changing at lightning speed, its member states arming Ukraine and themselves. It’s particularly impressive given that the EU’s initial response to a new challenge (the eurozone sovereign debt meltdown and the migration crisis) tends to be slow, halting and often wrong-headed.

What else is changing in the international order? Suddenly, as a club of rich democracies, the G7 has a role again in coordinating sanctions efforts. China, whose presence was deemed necessary for any serious conversation about global governance, is in a rather uncomfortable position in lining up with Russia.

Seizing the moment, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky is applying for membership. A few member states (including, predictably, Poland) immediately weighed in on its behalf.

Before this weekend I’d have regarded Ukraine joining the EU to be somewhat missing the point apart from as a symbolic move to commit Kyiv to looking westwards. As I argued a few weeks ago (it seems like about a decade now), it was the EU assuming that trade on its own could do the job of foreign policy and signing a politicised “deep and comprehensive free trade agreement” (DCFTA) in 2014 that was the trigger for Putin’s seizing of Crimea.

There are still significant issues with meeting a bunch of criteria, even assuming Ukraine will emerge as a free and independent country after the war. The DCFTA hasn’t ended economic dysfunction, and the EU really doesn’t need another corrupt and authoritarian country on its eastern flank.

But you can now imagine the EU playing at least a supporting if not a primary security role alongside Nato, coordinating elements of national armed forces even without running its own. The EU does in theory have its own mutual protection clause, but not all member states have signed up and there’s no mechanism to put it into action. If the EU wants to become a fully-fledged security power to match its powers in trade, it’s got a long way to travel yet. Mind you, the rate it’s going it’ll be there by Thursday morning.

DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 14:40

From the BBC live blog

BREAKING
IOC bars Russian and Belarusian athletes from events
The International Olympic Committee has recommended to international sports federations that athletes from Russia and Belarus will be banned from competitions in light of the ongoing invasion of Ukraine.

In a statement issued on Monday, the organisation's executive board wrote that in cases where it proves impossible to prevent athletes from taking part, they should be prevented from doing so under the names Russia or Belarus.

"No national symbols, colours, flags or anthems should be displayed," it added.

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 14:40

@MarshaBradyo

And I will add if you think you can line the borders with NATO troops and it’s less provocative than a statement - not worded for delicate ears but correct - then that’s is pretty flimsy.
I think you can protect, very robustly, NATO/Countries/borders but that is different than escalating and saying non nato countries will also lead to conflict, which what she said.

...and before you have another go at me, her own Govt have distanced themselves from her remarks.

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 28/02/2022 14:42

Switzerland announcing it's going to match the EU sanctions against Russia.

Whew.

Thereisnolight · 28/02/2022 14:42

@vera99

An interesting take from an FT pundit Alan Beattie

Ukraine, the new world order and the EU’s role

I’m writing this from Germany. There’s no better place to observe how a new European and international order is being changed in a crisis.

Before the invasion, the 1970s Ostpolitik line of engagement rather than confrontation with Russia had a powerful pull. I found a hugely entertaining interview in the New York Times in 1982 headlined “Helmut’s Pipeline”, in which the NYT’s resident conservative William Safire berated the then chancellor Helmut Schmidt of the Social Democratic party for making Germany dependent on Soviet Russian gas. You can still argue engagement with Moscow was the right idea during the cold war, but it was horrendously ill-suited to Putin’s aggressive Russian nationalism, indeed imperialism. Now Olaf Scholz, an SPD chancellor only a couple of months into office, has overturned decades of German certainties.

The EU is changing at lightning speed, its member states arming Ukraine and themselves. It’s particularly impressive given that the EU’s initial response to a new challenge (the eurozone sovereign debt meltdown and the migration crisis) tends to be slow, halting and often wrong-headed.

What else is changing in the international order? Suddenly, as a club of rich democracies, the G7 has a role again in coordinating sanctions efforts. China, whose presence was deemed necessary for any serious conversation about global governance, is in a rather uncomfortable position in lining up with Russia.

Seizing the moment, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky is applying for membership. A few member states (including, predictably, Poland) immediately weighed in on its behalf.

Before this weekend I’d have regarded Ukraine joining the EU to be somewhat missing the point apart from as a symbolic move to commit Kyiv to looking westwards. As I argued a few weeks ago (it seems like about a decade now), it was the EU assuming that trade on its own could do the job of foreign policy and signing a politicised “deep and comprehensive free trade agreement” (DCFTA) in 2014 that was the trigger for Putin’s seizing of Crimea.

There are still significant issues with meeting a bunch of criteria, even assuming Ukraine will emerge as a free and independent country after the war. The DCFTA hasn’t ended economic dysfunction, and the EU really doesn’t need another corrupt and authoritarian country on its eastern flank.

But you can now imagine the EU playing at least a supporting if not a primary security role alongside Nato, coordinating elements of national armed forces even without running its own. The EU does in theory have its own mutual protection clause, but not all member states have signed up and there’s no mechanism to put it into action. If the EU wants to become a fully-fledged security power to match its powers in trade, it’s got a long way to travel yet. Mind you, the rate it’s going it’ll be there by Thursday morning.

Yes so imo even them applying to join the EU right now is very provocative. Not helpful guys, if you’re supposed to be having peace talks.
ajandjjmum · 28/02/2022 14:45

I think the peace talks are over.

Thereisnolight · 28/02/2022 14:46

@ajandjjmum

I think the peace talks are over.
Hmm yes.
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