The Invasion Continues...

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Thread two as thread one is complete...

Does anyone know about the two provinces in the east of Ukraine - Luhansk and Donetsk? I have Russian friends - one of whom is staying with her mum in Moscow - and she says that these provinces are filled with Russian speaking people who were getting terrorised since 2014 and the pro-western Ukrainian government. And these people were cheering when Russia entered. Thing is I just don’t get it because surely if that were happening and they were getting so badly terrorised - they could have upped sticks and gone back to Russia. But that’s the story going down in Moscow. Also that NATO have been poking Putin for years by not sticking to the promise of NATO not going further east than Germany. And that all Putin wanted from the USA was a guarantee that the Ukraine wouldn’t join NATO and the USA wouldn’t give it.

*by the pro western Ukrainian govt.

The rules based order only works if every major power respects it. You can’t just pick and choose which historical powers get a veto.

I’m not going to play the game of who’s the biggest baddie. I condemn all war and history should be learned from and not repeated.

@cakeorwine

I do wonder how much intelligence is being fed to the Ukraine army from the USA via satellite and potential drone feeds?

I think the answer would almost certainly be “a lot” but I don’t think we’ll be getting the details anytime soon.

Why is India backing Russia?
Pakistan yes but India?

@Blessex

Does anyone know about the two provinces in the east of Ukraine - Luhansk and Donetsk? I have Russian friends - one of whom is staying with her mum in Moscow - and she says that these provinces are filled with Russian speaking people who were getting terrorised since 2014 and the pro-western Ukrainian government. And these people were cheering when Russia entered. Thing is I just don’t get it because surely if that were happening and they were getting so badly terrorised - they could have upped sticks and gone back to Russia. But that’s the story going down in Moscow. Also that NATO have been poking Putin for years by not sticking to the promise of NATO not going further east than Germany. And that all Putin wanted from the USA was a guarantee that the Ukraine wouldn’t join NATO and the USA wouldn’t give it.

I can’t comment on the first part, but there is likely to be some element of truth to it. The USA won’t give that guarantee. They see Putin’s tenancy as short now given his age. Russians see their future as Europeans. They always have. It has been a case of brinkmanship, but that didn’t work in terms of status quo. I suspect the USA still takes the view the current regime in Russia will eventually crumble and given time that will probably be true. A younger generation will be a game changer.

Don’t forget Russia is run like the Mafia. It is a pyramid scheme and most oligarchs are local warlords in suits.

@GallopingHighRoad

Don’t forget Russia is run like the Mafia. It is a pyramid scheme and most oligarchs are local warlords in suits.

Is that right? I don’t think I knew that.

@Tigersonvaseline

Why is India backing Russia? Pakistan yes but India?

I tried answering that either upthread or it’s been asked elsewhere…anyhow..

No idea of why India behaved as they did on this specific vote but there are long standing military, economic and other ties between India and Russia (as there were between India and the Soviet Union)…

This wiki piece will no doubt have some holes in it it should at least give the gist of the history.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Russia_relations

Blessesx Russia , Putin is creating all sorts of absolute bollox.
Ukraine And Russia people are entwined And many times it's belonged to Russia.

But people living in Ukraine have the right to democracy And that's what they get. That's been stolen by Putin for people over the border in Russia.

I've just seen at least 6 heavily armed police in st petersherg round up a woman with a baby in a sling.

It's not for Putin to dictate what Ukraine does.
I bet they regret giving away their nuke's

Well perhaps we need to look at that trade agreement and visa agreement then!!

@Tigersonvaseline

Why is India backing Russia? Pakistan yes but India?

Isn’t that just down to money? They’re not supporting their actions, just refusing to break trading ties with them.

Why is India backing Russia?
Pakistan yes but India?

Countries don’t have permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests. Turning your back on the 3rd most powerful country in the world due to what is (until now) a fairly small regional conflict
(in terms of deaths/injuries) is a pretty big ask.

Where are the links about Norway? I've not seen them.

@NobodysGonnaKnow
Isn’t that just down to money
Short of some country attempting to commit atrocities on the scale of the Holocaust, unfortunately everything is always “just” down to money.

[quote supermoonrising]@NobodysGonnaKnow
Isn’t that just down to money
Short of some country attempting to commit atrocities on the scale of the Holocaust, unfortunately everything is always “just” down to money.[/quote]
True

Plus from India’s POV it doesn’t really have any impact to destabilise.

@Blessex

Does anyone know about the two provinces in the east of Ukraine - Luhansk and Donetsk? I have Russian friends - one of whom is staying with her mum in Moscow - and she says that these provinces are filled with Russian speaking people who were getting terrorised since 2014 and the pro-western Ukrainian government. And these people were cheering when Russia entered. Thing is I just don’t get it because surely if that were happening and they were getting so badly terrorised - they could have upped sticks and gone back to Russia. But that’s the story going down in Moscow. Also that NATO have been poking Putin for years by not sticking to the promise of NATO not going further east than Germany. And that all Putin wanted from the USA was a guarantee that the Ukraine wouldn’t join NATO and the USA wouldn’t give it.

The situation with NATO is complex, not least because Gorbachov has denied that such a promise was ever given. It also ignores the right of those countries to self-determination, regardless of any agreement that may (or may not) have happenedd between the US and the USSR as was.

www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-is-vladimir-putin-right-a-bf318d2c-7aeb-4b59-8d5f-1d8c94e1964d

There are Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine (and all of Ukraine, for that matter). They were settled there by Stalin, in the main, after Stalin, uhhh, let's go with 'committed an act of genocide' against the native Tatar population. That's also why the Crimea has a largely Russian speaking population. Putin has been funding rebel groups from those populations in Eastern Ukraine for years now, with hindsight I suspect in anticipation of the current invasion. 'Badly terrorised'? Well, there's been ongoing unrest which has been addressed. Whether that counts as 'police action against criminals' or 'terrorizing' depends I suspect on your perspective. I have seen nothing to suggest that non-shitstirring Russian speakers have been treated badly.

@supermoonrising

*Why is India backing Russia? Pakistan yes but India?*

Countries don’t have permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests. Turning your back on the 3rd most powerful country in the world due to what is (until now) a fairly small regional conflict
(in terms of deaths/injuries) is a pretty big ask.

m.timesofindia.com/india/india-under-pressure-from-us-and-russia-over-un-vote/amp_articleshow/89835522.cms

@Tigersonvaseline

Why is India backing Russia? Pakistan yes but India?

www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/ukraineindia-on-why-it-abstained-on-russia-resolution-who-said-what-at-unsc-101645838751050-amp.html

The path of diplomacy given up!!

Russia plays dirty, look at Syria?
Are we giving these people protection from chemical weapons?

Just on the nuclear weapons that Ukraine "gave up". They didn't have control over those weapons themselves. They were effectively Russian, former Soviet Union, weapons on Ukrainian soil.

How long could this war go on for. After three days they are fighting in the city. Could this be a short war?