The invasion has begun

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Russia has begun it's invasion of Ukraine. Who knows where this will end.

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-moscow-kyiv-626a8c5ec22217bacb24ece60fac4fe1

@Gingerwarthog that's very sad news but what heroes to be defiant to the bitter end.

An interesting article by Putin’s biographer:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10549359/Vladimir-Putin-isnt-mad-hes-evil-writes-Russian-Presidents-biographer-Professor-MARK-GALEOTTI.html

What then though, do we all just re write the world map with Ukraine as oart of Russia?

If you look at the Russian territories, Crimea is counted but noted as ‘not internationally recognised’

I’ve just learnt recently that Russia has territory between Lithuania and Poland (Kalingrad)

We must also look at Ukraine's successes, they recaptured some of the airfields which will slow down and impede the invasion. A good many of the strong hold are still being held by Ukraine.
Russian forces have now run out of food entirely, and other supplies, so they having to 'pause' on the second day!! So what does this tell you about their true preparation, apart from force how did someone forget that soldiers actually need food to survive. This says ALOT about the war, and it may not be the easy win Putin thought it would be. There is one thing amassing 190,000 troops and invading an innocent country. Quite another keeping them all alive and fed.

Some Russian soldiers have handed themselves over to the government in Ukraine and refused to fight, others thought they were on a 'fact finding' mission.

The war is far from over, and the conclusion even less certain. The next two days will define Ukraine's future.

Ukraine don’t have to ‘win’ the war. They just need to not lose. If they can hold out even for a couple of months I think the Russians will fall back.

Easier said than done of course

Some Russian soldiers have handed themselves over to the government in Ukraine and refused to fight, others thought they were on a 'fact finding' mission.

I read somewhere that an idea to destabilise and weaken Russia was to offer their soldiers safe passage to the West. I thought it was ludicrous, but maybe it isn’t as mad as I thought.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

“The next two days will define Ukraine's future.”

And quite possibly also Putin”s.

I agree, even a stalemate would be considered a total abject failure in Moscow. They only need to get to a stalemate. If much of the force is already starving and struggling, maybe it is not such a long shot after all.

Yes molly Russians are being offered the opportunity of safe passage, I think it is a brilliant move. They are treated so badly, forced to fight with incinerators intended to burn their bodies should they be so unlucky as to die in combat, and treated like fodder by the Kremlin, who wouldn't defect given the choice? The war is pointless, there can't be even a sense of saving Russia or any real spirit of combat. They are literally killing their own relatives and neighbours all of whom are peaceful and harmless.

We need that chink of light to become a chasm and then a waterfall of deflection. The best way to do that is to offer them a hot supper and a way out of this unholy mess.

Russian forces have now run out of food entirely, and other supplies, so they having to 'pause' on the second day!!

Astonishing if true - and gives me hope!

**defection that should read. I think the waterfall of 'deflection' has already happened with the wall to wall disinformation being peddled out of Russia on every SM forum in the world.

They will have to get past the might and joint strength of the European Union's forces. After agreeing on pronouns, diversity and inclusion policies for tank crews and oh wait.......

Well this was the situation being reported by Moscow Times on Monday. It is now Friday and in the Telegraph, this morning, which I can not link it outlines that the Russians have had to 'pause' citing regrouping, but it is understood that food supplies is an issue.

Of course the Kremlin say it is all 'resolved' but I am not sure how it could be given the reports coming out of Russia itself.

www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/21/russian-troops-at-ukraines-border-face-nightmare-living-conditions-a76488

Moscow Times:

'Russian troops stationed in the town of Dolbino near the Ukrainian border have been living in “nightmare” conditions, sleeping on cramped floors and going without military food rations for days, according to social media reports and rights advocates interviewed by The Moscow Times.

The soldiers from the Taman and Kantemirovskaya Divisions are stationed in the town of Dolbino 30 kilometers from the Ukrainian border. They have gone without food rations and proper accommodation for the last five days, with soldiers forced to pay out-of-pocket for supplies.

On Monday they already had not eaten for five days, or eating very limited rations. So I can't think they are in good shape at all by now. Not wishing this on them to be clear, but obviously it help Ukraine no end to be faced with a depleted, exhausted and starving army.

There are serious logistical problems on the ground for Russia that could hamper the invasion, and give Ukraine just enough space to hold out or could cause the Russian forces to collapse altogether.

[quote NewModelArmyMayhem18]@Gingerwarthog that's very sad news but what heroes to be defiant to the bitter end.[/quote]
I think that if you are defending your home country, you are much more motivated to fight to the end compared to if you are attacking.

Sad news but what a defiant message to other Ukrainean soldiers the Ukrainean people

cake you spell it 'Ukrainian' not Ukrainean can you at least work that out. Out of respect for the people at the very least.

Just watching BBC breakfast, the two Ukrainian ladies are awe inspiring, very brave.

I really don't think this is going to go Putin's way.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

cake you spell it 'Ukrainian' not Ukrainean can you at least work that out. Out of respect for the people at the very least.

Thankyou for your helpful comment.

@MakeUsACuppa

Just watching BBC breakfast, the two Ukrainian ladies are awe inspiring, very brave.

I really don't think this is going to go Putin's way.

Indeed.

It's easy to start an attack.
People defy.
You need to have supply lines.
People resist and you find that staying there is not as easy as you thought.

Russia is going to be paying a very heavy cost for this.

What is going to happen to the President of the Ukraine and his family?Surely NATO can at least put down some boundaries regarding how they will be treated, allowed to leave etc? Does anyone have any insight.

I am feeling rather ashamed/guilty of not helping more this morning.

The President of Ukraine has confirmed this morning that he isn't going anywhere and will remain exactly where he is.

Given Russia are struggling, maybe it is a good decision!

But just be aware that if you refer to a 1990 'agreement' that NATO would not expand, this is not exactly true and you are parroting Putin's talking points

Even if it were true - since then the Baltic states and Georgia have become sovereign states and are allowed to make their own decisions. Ditto the other erstwhile Warsaw Pact countries which joined the EU and some NATO.

@Ddot

crimesagainstwine Thankyou

Thank you for what? I don't understand a word of that post. Why would US warships be on Russian soil (I assume you mean territorial waters).

And why the references to Finland? Finland is neutral and has trodden a very careful line since WW2 to not prod the Russian bear!

Independent democratic nations can make decisions for themselves regarding their own security, the pact was not designed to last forever, it was a bridge to an agreement that worked at the time.

Now, we are in the 21st century, and they are living next door to a demented leader one can hardly be surprised that they wish to protect their populations from exactly the kind of thing we see today.

NATO will be even stronger after this, I wonder if Putin has considered the ramifications of his jaunt into Ukraine. Every country in Europe that is currently neutral will now join NATO as soon as possible, given what happens when you are on the outside.

A long term miscalculation by the Russians - that will play out for decades for Russia geopolitically and that is if they win this war, there are not guarantees of that either.

I found this simplistic:

@Damnloginpopup I think it is the Russian mentality to fight to the death. I remember watching a documentary about Chernobyl and soldiers were queuing up for the honour of basically committing suicide for the USSR. The only hope is that I truly believe the Russian people are not behind Putin in this, he might find more internal resistance than previous leaders. The Russian people are more 'westernised' and the younger people have lost the Bolshevik mentality. We can live in hope.

@Libraryghost

My own father refused to go to Chernobyl and I know many who avoided conscription in some way, men who’d been in Afghan war. It was more a case for those who did feeling ‘someone had to’, no pride, but resignation.

I personally think the Russian and (western at least) Ukrainian people have quite different mentality and always have had division. Many Ukrainians are Nationalistic, but are freedom lovers, libertarians and have a long history of clashing/ not submitting. They don’t share the Russian collectivist views nor the dictator acceptance.

An example is en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Holodomor was a man made famine, a soviet genocide of Ukrainian people. This isn’t forgotten in Ukraine. Millions of ethnic Ukrainians died, unprecedented in peacetime for any nation.

Ukrainians are willing to fight for freedom, defend to the last man because they are not one people who share a mindset. They fear the loss of being a sovereign nation greatly and again being stripped by Russia with a mad man leading them…. Again. Moldovans are in solidarity as they fear if Ukrainians fall, they do too, the March continues south.

Many Russian soldiers don’t have this mentality. They are poor teenagers, men in poverty who’ve been dumped to fight a war without commanders following. They don’t even know what they are fighting for in cases. Some didn’t even believe they would be fighting. Others are simply rebels/ fighters who have had 8 years of lawless uncontrolled war. Not a crack team, but violent uncontrolled men.

A few suggestions of how we can support the people of Ukraine this morning: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine