The invasion has begun

[Damnloginpopup]

Russia has begun it's invasion of Ukraine. Who knows where this will end.

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-moscow-kyiv-626a8c5ec22217bacb24ece60fac4fe1

I'm bloody sick of the lot of em. Boris biden and Putin. Oh and all the rest who caused this mess, I'm tired and pissed off, going to sleep now. It's just one thing after another.

[quote Alexandra2001]@dreamingbohemian Biden said today that the USA has given $640m of military equipment to Ukraine.

On capabilities, the Russians and the US have come up against each before.. or rather their equipment has, Iraq in 91, the US swept through the Russian equipped Iraqi army with ease, the T72 was no match for the M1 nor US air power.

Sure the Ruskies have re armed but so have the Americans.[/quote]
There's a thousand or so T72's plus 8000-odd in reserve. There's also 1200 odd T80's with 3000 or so in reserve and 700 odd T90's. What has been deployed I don't know. they won't be quite the same T72's operated by Iraq (or operated by the same standard of crew or command).

Pelosoi has Said 600 million dollars worth of equipment is going to Ukraine.

1. Russian troops are v close to the capital already.
2. isn't anyone terrified this will fall into Russia hands!

Too little too late

When I saw Putin on the news earlier I thought he looked ill; bloated and pale

He’s looked like that for years! And is only 69. I fear he may be around for some time yet.

I'm bloody sick of the lot of em. Boris biden and Putin. Oh and all the rest who caused this mess

I’m no fan of Boris or Biden, but how did they cause this mess?

Ok this is the 1990 deal that people keep referring to. It's a major theme for Kremlin apologists so worth reading more about if you can.

After the Berlin Wall came down, Germany reunified in 1990 -- catching everyone off guard with how quickly this happened. This raised a major issue, should a reunified Germany be a NATO member?

At this point the Soviet Union still existed. After extensive negotiations, the Soviet Union agreed that reunified Germany could join NATO.

Here comes the controversy. The Russians later claimed and insist to this day that they only agreed to this because the US/NATO promised that they would not expand further into Eastern Europe. At that point those countries had gotten rid of their communist regimes and the Warsaw Pact was disintegrating, but nobody was really thinking about possible NATO expansion. Future events were uncertain and the Soviet Union still existed.

There was definitely no formal agreement or treaty on this question. That is very clear. The Russians are saying there was an informal deal on this.

The US/NATO disputes this -- and Gorbachev has confirmed their version of events. They say the only deal was that NATO troops would not be deployed to the former East Germany. This was put into the official agreement.

Even if an informal deal had been made, it was with the Soviet Union, which ceased to exist the following year, completely changing the entire European security order.

Basically it is a very controversial debate and I'm not going to say that there is one definitive interpretation of all this. But just be aware that if you refer to a 1990 'agreement' that NATO would not expand, this is not exactly true and you are parroting Putin's talking points.

Drayday which Ukrainian animal rescue are you donating to? Want to do that too.

There's a thousand or so T72's plus 8000-odd in reserve. There's also 1200 odd T80's with 3000 or so in reserve and 700 odd T90's. What has been deployed I don't know. they won't be quite the same T72's operated by Iraq (or operated by the same standard of crew or command)

But the yanks beat the iraqi t72 not because the M1 was a better tank (it was) but the US had better ammunition and they still do, the yanks have shells that will destroy a T90 very easily but the t90 doesn't have the gun to destroy the m1 so easily.
T80 breaks down & the T72 will be the same tank, it was superseded by the T80 then the T90 was an ungraded T72.

Remember also, that the Russians spend less in absolute terms than the UK does on defence, they haven't modernised quite that much.

i hope the weapons we (the west) have given the Ukrainians prove very effective, though i do feel sorry for conscripted russian soldiers, most really dont want to be there.

..and that would be the biggest adv the US would have - an enlisted army.

Every time I listen to Ukraine correspondents and journalists I feel so ashamed that Europe has been so passive over the last decade or more and continues to be, really. They’re so ill equipped to defend themselves, but it’s like “see how you get on by yourself, old chap”

nonono1
Watch the video

@Ibizafun

Drayday which Ukrainian animal rescue are you donating to? Want to do that too.

@Ibizafun have a listen to Putin’s speech, or read the translation. Don’t worry - he’s after killing people, not dogs and cats. So you can sleep easy 🙄

It’s heartbreaking to see posters even banging on about animal charities when children and their parents will end up being murdered, or at best Homeless and traumatised by a foreign power. Is that honestly your priority?

It’s like Pen and his bloody poodles all over again.

For those worrying about actual humans…

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine

. It is possible to care about people and animals simultaneously. Also many heartbroken traumatised people on the move might feel slightly better if they knew their pets were ok.

Does anybody think there is any realistic prospect of somebody bumping off this psychopath?

[quote crimesagainstwine]@Ddot

Does anyone know what is really going on please. Apart from it being a shit storm

West reaping what they have sowed by being slow to accept Russia to NATO
Putin left with no choice but to put a barrier up between "neutral" states such as Finland between Russia and NATO - through fear that US warships would be on Russian soil
West ignoring and minimising Russian concerns
Failure to deal with Cold War after affects - esp. Finland and need for neutral areas
Populism is Eastern Europe
Obama/Trump/Biden (and any Europeans you want to add) - playing stupid games with Putin and promising him/Russia that they could be part of wider NATO agreement and then backing out at last minute
Europe leaders (Macron/Johnson having home issues to deal with)
German Chancellor (new) needing to assert authority
Propaganda
Trigger happy idiots on both sides[/quote]
Excellently explained. On another thread someone referred to it as a reverse Cuban missile crisis. The truth is successive western politicians and lobbyists have shamelessly used Ukraine to wage a proxy war against Russia. Not for human rights but for that good old root of evil: Money.

John Mearsheimer gave an excellent talk 6 years ago on "Why is Ukraine the West's Fault?"
m.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&feature=youtu.be

@Dinosaurs1994

Does anybody think there is any realistic prospect of somebody bumping off this psychopath?

The only hope is a successful coup.

[quote DrBlackbird]For those worrying about actual humans…

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine[/quote]
👍

@Dinosaurs1994

Does anybody think there is any realistic prospect of somebody bumping off this psychopath?

I’ve been thinking about it all day.

If the “he’s lost the plot totally” interpretation is correct, then I think it’s possible. Several highly placed people tried it with Hitler.

It must be terrifying to be in Moscow or St Petersburg right now. Even the senior government class can’t be entirely populated by loyal Putin acolytes who are all crazy enough to agree with him and fanatical enough to be fine with their families being obliterated by nukes.

I wish there was more information on what the hell is going on with the hostage situation in Chernobyl.

In the greater scheme of things this is a very small point - but I’m going to make an effort on any further posts to use Kyiv rather than …

Three things to remember, humans have no more right to be on this planet than any other animal.
Animals are not responsible for creating this threat, past threats or any future threats.
It is entirely possible to care about what happens to innocent humans AND innocent animals at the same time so if someone wants to donate to an animal charity then mind your own fucking business.
Nobody is forcing you to do so.

@allibaby

Three things to remember, humans have no more right to be on this planet than any other animal. Animals are not responsible for creating this threat, past threats or any future threats. It is entirely possible to care about what happens to innocent humans AND innocent animals at the same time so if someone wants to donate to an animal charity then mind your own fucking business. Nobody is forcing you to do so.

This.

crimesagainstwine
Thankyou

More heartbreaking news coming out of a Ukraine this morning.
13 Ukrainian soldiers defending Snake Island in the Black Sea killed - their final, defiant response to the Russian warship threatening them has gone viral.