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Original poster

No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

373 replies

stregadelcucito · 23/02/2022 07:07

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

OP posts:
Chakraleaf · 23/02/2022 14:04

It's terrible.

I wasn't diagnosed with asd till an adult. I didn't do my gcses, I have completed a degree with OU.

Comefromaway · 23/02/2022 14:04

Realistically what will his career pathway be though?dais has an MA in media, works collecting council tax, I've got an MSc in marine biology and work in real estate. My point is that a degree Jana subject doesn't guarantee a career in it and it saddles your with a load of debt.

Session musician, keyboard programmer for theatres and other stuff, composing for media, producing backing tracks for other people etc etc etc He's actually already seen an ideal entry level job advertised in a city not too far away, he just needs a degree for it. He has spoken to several people already working in the industry and they have all said go and get the music degree, start making contacts and come back in 3 years time.

WestendVBroadway · 23/02/2022 14:04

The current Maths GCSE is not fit for purpose. It should be based around numeracy which would be much more useful in everyday life. I have a level 5 teaching diploma, luckily my Level 2 in Adult numeracy was sufficient to get me in the course. My DC is at prestigious (though non RG) uni. They are studying an Arts related course which fortunately they got into dispite not having GCSE Maths. Are we saying that someone who may have 8 high passes at GCSE , but just not Maths is not academic enough to go to uni?

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General education
Chakraleaf · 23/02/2022 14:06

@VitalsStable

You can't get into 6th Form round here without a c in both English and maths so I'm unsurprised that you can't get into university without them.
But some people just don't grow into thrive till later teenage years.
Svara · 23/02/2022 14:07

@Thoosa

I’m sorry @Teenylittlefella but I'm an English teacher of 22 years. This isn't grade 5 writing unfortunately. It is literate but to achieve Grade 5 there needs to be much more sophistication of vocab, sentence structure, tense changes, literary devices.

I don’t think she was quibbling about the grading. More saying that that was a sufficient literacy attainment level for some degree courses (presumably not meaning Literature courses).

My DS is similar, grade 4 for language, 3 for literature in last mocks. He can write, but nowhere near fast enough, and doesn't really get all the literature analysis stuff. Copes with writing requirements for other subjects as he is expected to get 7 to 9s for maths, triple science, computer science, DT.

I don't see why ability to use language can not be assessed within the individual subjects, or else have a true functional literacy qualification.

Comefromaway · 23/02/2022 14:07

@WestendVBroadway

The current Maths GCSE is not fit for purpose. It should be based around numeracy which would be much more useful in everyday life. I have a level 5 teaching diploma, luckily my Level 2 in Adult numeracy was sufficient to get me in the course. My DC is at prestigious (though non RG) uni. They are studying an Arts related course which fortunately they got into dispite not having GCSE Maths. Are we saying that someone who may have 8 high passes at GCSE , but just not Maths is not academic enough to go to uni?
Similarly English. My son did pass his GCSE ENglish (just). He is very eloquent and has impeccable spellings and grammar, he just does not see inference. He can write a project specification, a business letter and argue a case for something but the current GCSE's rely on the ability to analyse 19th century poetry or see symbolism in pictures.
Svara · 23/02/2022 14:09

Maths is the same, if you can't do the maths in physics you won't get a high enough grade to go on to physics A level anyway. If you want to do humanities then a functional numeracy course should do.

SamphiretheStickerist · 23/02/2022 14:10

You ain't kidding @WestendVBroadway

Yet another of the reasons I quit teaching. I was quite literally torturing some students by the time I stopped. I led a department teaching FS maths and English, GCSE resits in an FE College for the last few years of my teaching career. It was fucking horrendous!

Lovinglife45 · 23/02/2022 14:10

Wow - some unnecessary nasty comments on here. Most people are likely to feel inadequate at not having a GCSE in maths or English. Negative comments really do not help.

I do not have a GCSE in maths. I attempted three times and failed. I do not 'get' maths at all. I have a degree but obviously could not study A levels so went via the GNVQ route.

Ironically I am excellent with budgets and figures.

I have spent the majority of my life feeling like the thickest person/least intellectual person in the room.

Comefromaway · 23/02/2022 14:13

An extremely talented young man I know had three attempts and failed to pass his GCSE maths.

But he is now studying at the Royal Academy of Music with a prestigious scholarship.

SpikeySmooth · 23/02/2022 14:16

II took my Maths GCSE twice, scraped a C second time. This being 1996, I got into nursing school with my Btec national diploma in Nursery Nursing (I doubt it's possible these days). I didn't realise how much maths was required as a nurse. I didn't finish my nursing diploma.

DD is doing GCSE maths and is predicated an 8 or more. I have no idea what she's doing! But she wants to go into an art or history- or both - field when she gets older so as long as she gets a decent grade at GCSE she doesn't have to look at another equation ever again.

WestendVBroadway · 23/02/2022 14:17

^^ Despite, not dispite. Oh the irony.... walks away with head bowed in shame. Blush

savehannah · 23/02/2022 14:23

@Knockdown42

Excepting for genuine disabilities I don’t know how you could fail GCSE maths or English. They’re not asking for a top grade. If they’ve only attended the class and not even completed homework they should still easily pass.
This is really not true and shows you haven't even seen what they are expected to do for GCSE maths. If you see my post further up you can see I said as a degree educated person who got an A in GCSE maths years ago, I find the content my daughter is learning for the foundation paper (ie max grade 5) incomprehensible, theoretical and difficult.
cakeorwine · 23/02/2022 14:27

@Silvershroud

GCSE Maths and English is a basic level. No one should be allowed to study further if they can't attain that level.
And yet 30% of pupils don't get at least a Grade 4 in maths.

Despite years of primary and secondary maths lessons.

So what does that say about either the exams, the teaching or the pupils?

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 23/02/2022 14:32

@cakeorwine it probably says more about the fact that children are coming to school hungry, without enough sleep, without parental support for homework, possibly in neglectful or abusive homes etc. etc.

It probably also says something about undiagnosed or unsupported disabilities, too-large classrooms and an underfunded education system. It's not inevitable, other countries manage to have better educated populations. The UK (especially England and Wales) has mismanaging education for decades.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 23/02/2022 14:33
  • too-large classes, not classrooms!
seekinglondonlife · 23/02/2022 14:34

I know quite a few people with no qualifications whatsoever who did solid degrees with OU in later life. I'm assuming if this bill is passed then OU will not be possible for many people.

TuscanApothecary · 23/02/2022 14:37

I personally believe that the act of getting a degree, learning how to critically think, to understand how statistics can be misrepresented, to think where sources of information come from, complete a dissertation where you collect and analyse research ect is invaluable.

We have so much false information out there that people believe it would be great if all those willing and able to get degrees could get one.

CovidCorvid · 23/02/2022 14:56

And yet 30% of pupils don't get at least a Grade 4 in maths.

Despite years of primary and secondary maths lessons.

So what does that say about either the exams, the teaching or the pupils?

That’s a disgraceful figure. As a university lecturer if I had a module with such a high failure rate I’d be getting dragged infront of the head of school to explain why either my teaching was failing the students or why my assessment was failing the students. Please note I’m not blaming teachers for this. The issue is much higher up!

mumwon · 23/02/2022 14:57

re apprenticeships - many (best ones, nb some apprenticeships are not worth doing) of them require C in maths & English so the assumption that if you can't get into uni you can go for apprenticeship are misguided or misinformed

Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 15:09

As a university lecturer if I had a module with such a high failure rate I’d be getting dragged infront of the head of school to explain why either my teaching was failing the students or why my assessment was failing the students. Please note I’m not blaming teachers for this. The issue is much higher up!

Generations of failed children who go on to become poor parents?

why oh why do we end up tackling a problem instead of the cause? Quality early interventions are essential in order to break the cycle of parental failure.

toomuchlaundry · 23/02/2022 15:10

@CovidCorvid someone has to get grades 1 to 3.

Looking at grade boundaries you have to get about 10% in the maths paper to get grade 1, and 45% for grade 4 (foundation paper)

Should exams be made so everyone passes? So should the children who get 10% be given a pass mark?

CovidCorvid · 23/02/2022 15:14

I don’t know the answer. Maybe I’m wrong and 30% failure rate at gcse is ok and it’s us at the universities who have an issue with failure to fail and grade inflation. 🤷‍♀️ Just seems crazy like a pp said after years of teaching so many kids still don’t pass.

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2022 15:17

But the 30% failure to get a grade 4 rate is pre-set. You wouldn't have to defend a 30% failure rate to Uni bosses if even before the exams were written they specified that the outcome was to be that 30% of the cohort wouldn't meet the desired standard. You'd just go '30% failed as agreed' and they'd say 'good job'.

Beebumble2 · 23/02/2022 15:18

Back in my day not only did you need O level English and Maths, but most Universities required at least two Bs and a C, or above at A level.
Some courses also required Latin or French at O level, so the bar was set quite high.
I taught GCSE English, functional skills and a variety of entry level courses for many years. It is time that the exams at 16 and 18+ were completely revamped to become more suited to modern day life.