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Original poster

No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

373 replies

stregadelcucito · 23/02/2022 07:07

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

OP posts:
SartresSoul · 23/02/2022 15:22

I failed the maths GCSE including a retake. I’m absolutely useless at maths but fantastic at English (got an A*). Went to uni and got a first in English and history then a post grad. Maths has honestly never been relevant in my life at all and never stopped me achieving. I find this news sad.

Kazzyhoward · 23/02/2022 15:35

@CovidCorvid

* And yet 30% of pupils don't get at least a Grade 4 in maths.

Despite years of primary and secondary maths lessons.

So what does that say about either the exams, the teaching or the pupils?

That’s a disgraceful figure. As a university lecturer if I had a module with such a high failure rate I’d be getting dragged infront of the head of school to explain why either my teaching was failing the students or why my assessment was failing the students. Please note I’m not blaming teachers for this. The issue is much higher up!

The grading scheme is designed so that a certain percentage fail. Even if, one fluke year, everyone got over 50%, they'd change the grade boundaries so that the "bottom" 30% or so still "failed". The whole grading system is a disgrace.
2redcats · 23/02/2022 15:42

It's tricky, because DS has dyspraxia and dyslexia and will probably scrape a pass in English at best. In schools he qualifies for very little support, he would actually get more suitable support at uni - study skills and assistive tech. So then you could say make an exception for those with SEND, except because of the poor support in schools many young adults are still getting diagnosed with dyslexia after they start uni. DS only has diagnoses as we paid roughly £1300 for the assessments, so then you disability provision is effectively discriminating against poorer families. So my conclusion is its a crap idea unless we sort out schools first.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
CovidCorvid · 23/02/2022 15:44

I forget that gcse are supposed to have big chunks of kids fail every year. Maybe the whole system needs a rethink but I accept there can’t be a system where everyone passes.

I do still think though some kids can fail maths and go on and do well at uni in a totally unrelated subject. Same for English. But I also agree applicants need protection from universities possibly accepting anyone in order to get fees knowing they don’t have a good chance.

LondonLife3 · 23/02/2022 15:49

Angry How ridiculous… I got a D in English and given I’m badly dyslexic this was quite a good grade! It’s never held me back.. I have a 1st class computer science degree and actually use my degree as a successful self employed consultant.

pussycatunpickingcrossesagain · 23/02/2022 15:51

If you can't achieve basic maths/English (equivalent to grade C GCSE in the olden days) they you weren't allowed to take A levels.
You needed a minimum of 3 A levels to contemplate taking a degree.

If they're letting students take a degree without that level of qualifications (and background knowledge, ability and experience which comes with it) then the degree isn't really worth much...

pigalow · 23/02/2022 15:53

An exam everyone passes would be meaningless. The breadth of ability from grade 9 to grade 1 is breathtaking. A child getting a grade 1 would be working at the level of a child aged 6-7 maybe lower. This would be a child struggling with basic 1-20 number bonds. There is no teaching in the world which would make GCSE Maths accessible to children of this low ability.

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2022 15:57

A child struggling with basic 1-20 number bonds wouldn't get a 1 at GCSE.

Foxyloxy1plus1 · 23/02/2022 15:57

I will always maintain that the major problem arose when the expectation began that 50% of people should go to university.

Before then, there were people who went to secondary modern or technical schools, many years ago, who then went on to train in practical trades and pursue careers that way. At that time, it was the case that a small percentage of school leavers went on to 6th form and, subsequently, university.

For me, it’s less a question of acquiring those core subject GCSEs and much more about fitting people for their future jobs and careers. We should value bricklayers, electricians, plumbers etc, as much as solicitors, accountants and doctors. Certainly, they will need maths skills to calculate quantities, measurements and a functional level is critical.

Every time anyone criticises grammar, spelling and punctuation on MN, they’re jumped on, so those of us it irritates usually keep quiet, unless we’re in Pedants Corner. I think the capacity to construct a piece of writing that is grammatically correct, with good spelling and punctuation, is a vital skill. I have to accept that it isn’t universally valued.

I would prefer that we value trades and skills as much as degrees. Simply saying you have a degree is only part of the picture.

SpicePumpkin · 23/02/2022 16:22

@pussycatunpickingcrossesagain

If you can't achieve basic maths/English (equivalent to grade C GCSE in the olden days) they you weren't allowed to take A levels. You needed a minimum of 3 A levels to contemplate taking a degree.

If they're letting students take a degree without that level of qualifications (and background knowledge, ability and experience which comes with it) then the degree isn't really worth much...

I have a degree and a very good career in Design. I didn't get a maths GCSE. is my degree and 20 year career really not worth much then?
cakeorwine · 23/02/2022 16:29

@CovidCorvid

I don’t know the answer. Maybe I’m wrong and 30% failure rate at gcse is ok and it’s us at the universities who have an issue with failure to fail and grade inflation. 🤷‍♀️ Just seems crazy like a pp said after years of teaching so many kids still don’t pass.
What makes you think it's failure if you don't get a Grade 4 or above?

They have not got a Grade 4 or above. Does that mean they have failed maths or they have just not shown that they are working at Grade 4 or above?

What defines 'failure' in maths or English?

chesirecat99 · 23/02/2022 16:58

@SomethingYesterday

Two separate things …

I’m pretty old and failed Maths O’Level. Plenty of universities might have rejected me at the time, but the one I wanted to go to accepted people without Maths if they had a science O’Level. Which I just about managed. That was Cambridge. I have a degree, professional qualification, postgrad and research qualifications.

But I do think there should be some minimum entry requirements for university entry now. (With full flexibility in individual cases, of course.)

The only person I know who has a degree and doesn't have GCSE/O-level maths went to Oxford. The university did give her extra tuition in maths up to GCSE level though and she had been at a failing school where very few students went on to university.

O-level/GCSE maths and English plus 2 A-levels at grade E always were the minimum entrance requirements to go to university (or polytechnic, back in the day), with the exception of art schools and conservatoires. I'm surprised that it isn't currently the case. Although I would have thought it would be disability discrimination against students with SpLDs that are taking courses that don't require maths or English skills eg a talented linguist with dyscalculia or mathmetician with dyslexia.

I'm not sure that anyone who can't achieve 2 Es at A level is likely to succeed at university unless it is a practical course with no academic content that requires talent rather than academic ability eg art or music.

Thoosa · 23/02/2022 17:17

I'm not sure that anyone who can't achieve 2 Es at A level is likely to succeed at university unless it is a practical course with no academic content that requires talent rather than academic ability eg art or music.

In the 90s & early 00s it was possible to get on a BEd on some places with EE. Education policy just get kicked backwards and forwards between two extremes.

Joy2TheWorld · 23/02/2022 18:03

For apprenticeships you do already need GCSE in maths and English at grade C/4 or above. If you don't have that however, you are required to undertake Functional Skills (free of charge but sat outside of the apprenticeship). It makes sense that you should need them to undertake a degree IMO. (The apprenticeships I have worked with is Finance apprenticeships but imagine all apprenticeships have the same rules)

MrsHamlet · 23/02/2022 18:07

And yet 30% of pupils don't get at least a Grade 4 in maths.
Despite years of primary and secondary maths lessons.
So what does that say about either the exams, the teaching or the pupils?
Grades 1 to 3 are pass grades.

TeenPlusCat · 23/02/2022 18:15

@MrsHamlet

*And yet 30% of pupils don't get at least a Grade 4 in maths. Despite years of primary and secondary maths lessons. So what does that say about either the exams, the teaching or the pupils?* Grades 1 to 3 are pass grades.
I know they are strictly passes (at level 1), but for most useful purposes people are asked for Level 2 passes which is grade 4+.

If my DD had 'passed' English and maths she wouldn't now be having to retake them with all the added stress that is bringing her...

MrsHamlet · 23/02/2022 18:19

I know. But I have taught many pupils for whom a 2 or 3 was a great achievement. Talking about those as fail grades is dismissive of their achievement.

TeenPlusCat · 23/02/2022 18:24

@MrsHamlet

I know. But I have taught many pupils for whom a 2 or 3 was a great achievement. Talking about those as fail grades is dismissive of their achievement.
Well I agree with you there. My DD's 4 x grade 3s she got for GCSEs last summer was a massive achievement considering how ill she had been.

But in the eyes of the government and employers she still didn't 'pass' and has to retake.

MrsHamlet · 23/02/2022 18:53

I have a vivid memory of hugging a child on results day years ago. Photographer took photos and the reported came over to ask what he'd got.
An E. We were bloody delighted for him.
He didn't make the paper but I'm prouder of that achievement than of many others. He struggled so hard and I was so pleased for him. He's working for a mate now and they're both doing very well.

Hercisback · 23/02/2022 18:56

@cakeorwine I think everyone else has covered the misconception about passing not being based on a skill set.

A grade 4 or higher is the grade a students needs to not have to resit. Commonly achieving a 4 or above is referred to as 'passing'.

DetailMouse · 23/02/2022 18:57

TBH if someone can't pass maths and English GCSE (with the access arrangements SN will bring) I'm not sure there'd be much value in any degree they achieved.

It feels like false pretences to accept such students onto the course to me.

DetailMouse · 23/02/2022 18:59

@MrsHamlet

I have a vivid memory of hugging a child on results day years ago. Photographer took photos and the reported came over to ask what he'd got. An E. We were bloody delighted for him. He didn't make the paper but I'm prouder of that achievement than of many others. He struggled so hard and I was so pleased for him. He's working for a mate now and they're both doing very well.
That's great, wonderful for him and you, but he still doesn't belong in University. There are other ways he can succeed, but manufacturing a way to get him onto a degree course would be no good for anyone.
MrsHamlet · 23/02/2022 19:08

@DetailMouse I didn't say he should go to university! I don't think they teach dry stone walling at university anyway.

DetailMouse · 23/02/2022 19:09

[quote MrsHamlet]@DetailMouse I didn't say he should go to university! I don't think they teach dry stone walling at university anyway.[/quote]
Forgive me I thought the thread was about student loans

BellatrixOnABadDay · 23/02/2022 19:10

Every time anyone criticises grammar, spelling and punctuation on MN, they’re jumped on, so those of us it irritates usually keep quiet, unless we’re in Pedants Corner. I think the capacity to construct a piece of writing that is grammatically correct, with good spelling and punctuation, is a vital skill. I have to accept that it isn’t universally valued.

Yes but it's posting on Mumsnet. I'm really good at English and got A*s/As at GCSEs/A-Levels. I spend my days writing briefing papers, meeting minutes, different kinds of updates and can write well. When it comes to posting on here, I cba to make the same effort, nor do I judge people who haven't got the best writing skills. I value good writing but on here I type whatever crap my tired brain can cope with.

I was really good at English and History, not amazing at maths and I hated it so I put in zero effort. I got an E- I could have got a C if I'd bothered but I didn't. Don't think I even bothered to do the coursework. I could have easily gone to university to do English or History- and with A*s and As in those subjects, why should having an E in a completely unrelated subject stop me?

As it goes, I chose not to go to university and now have a really good job, earning the same as my colleagues around me, many of whom have masters degrees and PHDs. So there are definitely different routes Grin