No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

Isn't it graded on ability to do certain skills?

No. Which is why the standard of maths required to obtain a pass grade has fallen in the past decade.

@Knockdown42

Excepting for genuine disabilities I don’t know how you could fail GCSE maths or English. They’re not asking for a top grade. If they’ve only attended the class and not even completed homework they should still easily pass.

Well I did. I was told at age 6 that I would fail. I cannot grasp the concepts long term (ie I can grasp them in the moment but they don't stick long term) - no specifically defined learning difficulty, just a chronic and extreme inability to make sense of it. Attitudes like yours are really unhelpful.

I'm a bloody whizz at English, have a job that uses mathematics in its daily application (ie in practical terms, not paper-based) and manage in my career just fine without maths O level.

Just because you found it comprehensible doesn't mean you're somehow superior to those of us who struggle.

@noblegiraffe

Isn't it graded on ability to do certain skills?

No. Which is why the standard of maths required to obtain a pass grade has fallen in the past decade.

Well that's a bit rubbish.

I thought that had been phased out now. So it's more ability than a percentage of the people taking the exam.

@nearlyspringyay

I support it. If they don't have the basic skills they aren't going to do well at uni and they certainly wont on the courses that are actually worth something.

Uni isn't the route for everyone, a lot of people I work with in a highly professional field have come through a different route. Modern apprenticeships are the way forward and making a big comeback now after Covid cocked it all up.

I worked with an apprentice who had no GCSEs at all as he was so dyslexic he just couldnt do it. He is now a Director, professionally qualified, he just needed a different way to learn.

No GCSE in maths here. I did well all through college and at Uni when getting my 2:1 degree. I have a good career but must remember that my degree and job aren't worth much. Thanks for that.

When I did my degree back in the nineties, degrees were still free. Unfortunately, I failed maths gcse but one of my degree subjects was English. Despite my own experience, I think it's probably right to request Maths&English for a degree course. More than that however, I think the bar for A levels should be raised to enable progression to a degree. My results at A level were 2 A's and a C. At uni, some people seemed amazed at that and shared that their A level grades were low, for example, 2 E's and an F! I was really shocked at that. I don't know if it's ongoing practice to admit students with poor A level grades but it is I'd it should definitely be stopped. Straight away, that woul limit the amount of stude g to Uni.

@cakeorwine

Isn't it graded on ability to do certain skills?

The marking scheme determines the number of marks for each type of question, so, yes, as to total number of marks on a paper, it is marked on ability linked to skills.

But, when it comes to actual grades, not raw marks, the whole cohort is considered and the grade boundaries set in such a way so that x% get a grade 9, y% get a grade 8, and so on. So, yes, every year, there'll be a pre-determined percentage of entrants who will "fail", as the grade boundaries are changed to ensure that happens.

So, Fred, who got 50% (of marks) in 2021 may have got a grade 6, but Mary, who got 50% (of marks) in 2010 may have only got a grade 5, and Hamish, who got 50% (of marks) in 2022 may have got a grade 7.

The justification of that is that apparently, the questions some years are harder/easier than in others!!

Funny thing is that when I did my chartered accountancy exams, there was a fixed pass mark on all papers, it never changed from year to year, nor did it change from paper to paper. The exam questions were set in such a way that they genuinely were at the same level from year to year, subject to subject, and so there didn't need to be different pass marks as exams were never harder/easier than others.

@Thoosa

We are looking into open university modular learning. Currently doing coding courses.

The bit that gets me is that it isn't even saying the proposal is for no one to be able to go to uni, just that student loans won't be. Ergo if mummy and daddy are rich you can still go because they can afford to pay for you, no one else can though. Sure the system needs looking at, not sure making it less accessible for people from a certain demographic is overly progressive though.

I think everyone should take a basic skills assessment in English and maths - I personally do not think English and maths gcse is really suitable.

Need straightforward comprehension (some multiple choice, some short sentences, vocab test) and writing task (non imaginative, just to ensure reasonable spelling, grammar).

For maths - basic arithmetic, including fractions, decimals, percentages, basic statistics (mean, mode, median) and probability. Rearranging equations but no quadratic equations, trig or geometry.

@SpicePumpkin you have totally misunderstood the point.

@Namenic

I think everyone should take a basic skills assessment in English and maths - I personally do not think English and maths gcse is really suitable.

Need straightforward comprehension (some multiple choice, some short sentences, vocab test) and writing task (non imaginative, just to ensure reasonable spelling, grammar).

For maths - basic arithmetic, including fractions, decimals, percentages, basic statistics (mean, mode, median) and probability. Rearranging equations but no quadratic equations, trig or geometry.

Exactly, that's why I suggested something similar to the 11+ tests earlier in this thread. They do exactly what you suggest to test the "basics". No reason why something similar can't be made available to older children (and even young adults) to check the basic level of literacy and numeracy.

I would have thought that basic english is a prerequisite - how else are they expected to complete coursework?

As an aside I'm totally fed up of some of the piss poor grammar and spelling from some of my high flying educated colleagues - even with spellcheck etc - and which then goes out to clients.

Quite aware my own isn't perfect and usually ask for a review before anything goes out!

My mum was able to become a primary school teacher with no maths o level or cse. Wouldn't now. I know when I went to college you had to have GCSEs in the A level subjects you wanted (or similar) plus maths and English if you weren't taking these further. You had to resit maths and English GCSE if needed. It was a condition of being accepted for other subjects.

There is also something to be said for thinking about what happens after university. If a child is struggling with gcse they may well struggle with the numeracy/literacy tests that are commonly used for graduate/entry level jobs. I

I'm quite a hardliner on this. University isn't the right place for lots of people for lots of reasons which are not discriminatory.

If you can't pass English and maths at GCSE you are likely to struggle at degree level and to then secure a graduate level job.

Sadly, for many young people who don't get good GCSEs it's because of their socio economic circumstances, issues like dyslexia etc. and that's unacceptable, and turns HE into middle class finishing schools, baking in inequality in society.

But for me the answer is to improve children's lives, opportunities and education from birth, not to send kids to university when they will struggle, come out with a tonne of debt, a mediocre degree and no better job prospects than when they went in.

@Sockpile

My DS is severely dyslexic and has a very spiky profile. If he passes English it will be a miracle but he has great strengths in other areas - it would be incredibly unfair for him to unable to access university due to a poor English GCSE grade.

Ok, this is genuine point and debate and not a goady comment. I have a low level of dyslexia myself. Part of taking a degree course even in science subjects (chemistry degree here) involves writing long essays and dissertations. It also involves huge amount of reading to tight deadlines. If you dc is struggling now to pass English at gcse (not talking about A grade, just a good pass) then he will struggle to pass a worthwhile degree course. Those universities and courses that would accept him are likely to be in degrees that aren’t going to provide him a good pathway into a decent career. I’m not saying he shouldn’t go to university. More about you need to get him a lot of help to develop writing, reading and maths skills to the appropriate level. And I know that’s not easy within schools. But he absolutely has to find a way to improve his reading and writing to a good gcse standard equivalent to get onto a decent course that is worth him paying back a huge debt. intense tutoring to support him. With a specialist tutor. I don’t really understand that this is new “news”. A c grade gcse (or whatever it is/was) in maths and English has always been required for universities. When I went you needed a min of c grade “o” levels. The fact that some universities have dropped this in some courses just tells you the universities can’t get enough people to take worthless courses and it’s a cynical money making tactic. Be very cautious of such courses. If your son really does struggle with reading and writing despite a lot of additional support, please do think about the degree route carefully. They’re not saying it to be “exclusionary”, but because students need these skills. Since the demise of polytechnics and their focus on practical courses it does leave kids like him a bit high and dry. But their are other routes into excellent careers such as apprenticeships. Here they will continue to train both on the job, but also classroom learning but with less dependence on sheer amount of reading and writing required at universities. He can even then progress that qualification slowly to a degree level over his career whilst still being on work and earning. It’s a very attractive preposition to any school leaver vs the large student loans they’d leave with and little work experience. It actually makes me quite angry that many careers have now become dependant on degree courses, and are therefore writing off a whole bunch of potentially excellent students because their academic skills are more of a struggle, whereas the actual job they’ll qualify for needs much more particle skills e.g. nursing.

I'm an oldie so I took O levels. The absolute criteria for going any further in education was 5 academic O levels including English and Maths. O levels are not the equivalent of GCSEs in many subjects. Having taught in secondary education, I found, for example, that my O level French was almost identical to the current A level. Maths were more advanced too and we had no calculators.

You could become a teacher or solicitor with the above qualifications. No degree was necessary. People could go to university for free, but if your parents' income was a penny over the financial limit, they had to pay for everything and there were no loans.

Further education has become so devalued and it's time that it is tightened up. I work with unemployed young people who have degrees that are useless in terms of getting gainful employment. They are stuck with huge loans too.

My DGS failed GCSE maths many times. He went to a different educational establishment and passed after a couple of weeks tuition.
Maths teaching is incredibly poor in many schools. A good teacher can get almost anyone to pass.

On the subject of degrees, my first post school qualifications are now a degree and DH's are a degree too. He had to supervise undergraduates and was shocked at their lack of basic knowledge in maths and engineering.

You may be unhappy with the proposed new rules, but something needs to be done.

If you can't pass English and maths at GCSE you are likely to struggle at degree level and to then secure a graduate level job.

Bullshit. I got a first.

[quote user1497207191]@cakeorwine

Isn't it graded on ability to do certain skills?

The marking scheme determines the number of marks for each type of question, so, yes, as to total number of marks on a paper, it is marked on ability linked to skills.

But, when it comes to actual grades, not raw marks, the whole cohort is considered and the grade boundaries set in such a way so that x% get a grade 9, y% get a grade 8, and so on. So, yes, every year, there'll be a pre-determined percentage of entrants who will "fail", as the grade boundaries are changed to ensure that happens.

So, Fred, who got 50% (of marks) in 2021 may have got a grade 6, but Mary, who got 50% (of marks) in 2010 may have only got a grade 5, and Hamish, who got 50% (of marks) in 2022 may have got a grade 7.

The justification of that is that apparently, the questions some years are harder/easier than in others!!

Funny thing is that when I did my chartered accountancy exams, there was a fixed pass mark on all papers, it never changed from year to year, nor did it change from paper to paper. The exam questions were set in such a way that they genuinely were at the same level from year to year, subject to subject, and so there didn't need to be different pass marks as exams were never harder/easier than others.[/quote]
Even in my days of O levels and A levels this was always the case. Most kids will be unaffected by this. A tiny minority will have to take a resit. I did. Ok, not great at time but actually was a”silver lining” in the end as that extra year really prepared me for university in terms of working by myself rather than “asking my mates” who oddly weren’t qualified teachers . I had a private tutor - best thing I ever did regards to my academic career.

what if they get level 2 in numeracy & literacy? these are considered the equivalent of GCSE at C
the reason I suggest this is because its a better way to assess ability rather than curriculum of GCSE -because many children in fragile family situations or disabled children or those with specific LD such as dyslexia, innumeracy, dyspraxia (this can affect both), ASD, ADHD (both of these can be affected by time constraints) anxiety & children in care or children whose parents move around, or failing schools particularly those in inner cities .
& what about mature students? Life experience can make up for this qualification.
To enter Uni as a mature student my tutor ask me to write a rough 500 word essay on a a specified subject (I had foreign qualifications)
That is common sense
I can see more inequality for students accessing university education
A good red brick uni tends to have tutors who support their students more than Oxbridge & enables many to succeed

What annoys me is "The DfE has said that while numbers of applicants are increasing, 'not all students receive the same high quality of teaching' and many become saddled with debt for courses with poor job prospects." SO WHY ARE THEY FOCUSING ON YOUNG PEOPLE'S GCSE GRADES, INSTEAD OF QUALITY TEACHING - this means working with universities to improve what they offer (relevant industry based degrees) and better careers advice for young people and their parents.

I'll openly admit, I did a 'mickey mouse' degree subject because I loved it. Wasn't focused on being anything relevant or useful in the job market. However I also was encouraged while at uni to gain work experience and volunteering experience to make me employable afterwards. Without that experience, I would not of been able to secure my career path.

Government need to stop focusing on who can/can't go to uni and instead challenge the unis - i.e. have the hard conversations with institutions about their offer being relevant to local labour market requirements.

@CandyLeBonBon

If you can't pass English and maths at GCSE you are likely to struggle at degree level and to then secure a graduate level job.

Bullshit. I got a first.

Anecdata doesn't disprove the general rule. Congratulations on your first.

There's quite a few of us on this thread with first class degrees and professional jobs without having GCSEs. Just shows it's not about the students ability, it's about culling the number of graduates and further discrimination for students without wealth to pay for the degree.

@Whatdramain2022

I'm an oldie so I took O levels. The absolute criteria for going any further in education was 5 academic O levels including English and Maths. O levels are not the equivalent of GCSEs in many subjects. Having taught in secondary education, I found, for example, that my O level French was almost identical to the current A level. Maths were more advanced too and we had no calculators.

You could become a teacher or solicitor with the above qualifications. No degree was necessary. People could go to university for free, but if your parents' income was a penny over the financial limit, they had to pay for everything and there were no loans.

Further education has become so devalued and it's time that it is tightened up. I work with unemployed young people who have degrees that are useless in terms of getting gainful employment. They are stuck with huge loans too.

My DGS failed GCSE maths many times. He went to a different educational establishment and passed after a couple of weeks tuition.
Maths teaching is incredibly poor in many schools. A good teacher can get almost anyone to pass.

On the subject of degrees, my first post school qualifications are now a degree and DH's are a degree too. He had to supervise undergraduates and was shocked at their lack of basic knowledge in maths and engineering.

You may be unhappy with the proposed new rules, but something needs to be done.

The bit that’s missing in your otherwise correct explanation, is that for many kids who got lower grade A levels/ some CSEs there was the polytechnic route. The loss of Polytechnics is not talked about much but I think a major set back for kids who didn’t want a purely academic route, and wanted more practical skills. In my time (1980s) about 10% of school leavers got to Uni - there were less universities than there are now. And yes high academic achievement was expected and demands for high grade O and A levels. Another 15% plus went to polytechnics. Less demanding entry requirements but expected evidence of interest in practice side. Many of those course had links to industry and the degree was specific on specialist skills. So for instance I was offered ( and excepted) a degree course in Pure chemistry at a university. Very purist, theoretical, acedemic. I also applied and was accepted for polytechnic courses in Analytical chemistry - I accept3d one in case I didn’t get grades needed for Uni. That course was much more on practical skills, linked to businesses with needs for laboratory scientists who could hit the ground running. with hands on analytical testing skills.

Those poly’s all became universities and offered same as courses as universities in their desperate need to find funding. I get quite angry about the snobbery attached to polys and their demise. It wasn’t an improv,ent to the tertiary education system in my humble opinion

How many students will this actually cull?