No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

O levels were standardised in a different way - a C meant you had achieved a certain standard against specific criteria.

Current GCSEs are standardised inna different way - you may or may not have achieved a specific standard against specific criteria, but you have outscored, say, 30% of your peer group.

To use current GCSEs to indicate a particular absolute standard of English or Maths is therefore wrong.

Government need to stop focusing on who can/can't go to uni and instead challenge the unis - i.e. have the hard conversations with institutions about their offer being relevant to local labour market requirements.

Trust me, universities are being challenged by govt - TEF ratings, DHLE, LEO etc. - but they are in an impossible position: demand for fair access and better outcomes on one side and the student-as-customer on the other.

The real battleground is underfunded early years and primary/secondary education. In my county, 4/5 year olds arrive at school less ready than the national average, and they never catch up.

You can't get into 6th Form round here without a c in both English and maths so I'm unsurprised that you can't get into university without them.

Anecdata doesn't disprove the general rule. Congratulations on your first.

Show me some actual data then that shows people with no M or E GCSEs fail their degrees courses. Oh you can't. What a surprise.

@VitalsStable

You can't get into 6th Form round here without a c in both English and maths so I'm unsurprised that you can't get into university without them.

Not everyone who goes to university goes straight from sixth form or even via sixth form.

A good portion of our trainee nurses are mature students.

I'm pretty sure there's data out there showing that mature students do better than students straight from 6th form. My uni really valued the mature students as we turned up to lectures, didn't need a million extensions for bullshit reasons ect. You can only bypass the course requirements for GCSEs as a mature student.

This ideology of not letting students have loans without GCSEs will keep people who have potential out of uni due to their life circumstances which is discrimination.

@MayMorris You are absolutely correct. Also when everywhere had the grammar school system there were technical schools as well as secondary moderns. The technical schools set many people on a practical career path. Apprenticeships were also of a very high standard and those on the schemes were able to learn and earn. They were much more useful in industry than a lot of degrees we have today.

Apprenticeships are becoming more a thing though. DH’s accountancy firm are taking on more students from A-levels rather than degree. You can be a qualified accountant and earning the respective salary at the same age as someone coming out of university who still has to do the qualification and who has a student debt to pay off

Sounds like an excellent scheme and I only wish it was more common - except that it would need a lot more effort and funding and it doesn't seem the kind of headline government are interested in ATM

My son wants to study music/music technology. He's very good at it. The courses he is applying to and has been accepted at would previously have been delivered by polytechnics. They have industry links. But a degree is the only way he can get funded to train.

@Comefromaway

My son wants to study music/music technology. He's very good at it. The courses he is applying to and has been accepted at would previously have been delivered by polytechnics. They have industry links. But a degree is the only way he can get funded to train.

Realistically what will his career pathway be though?dais has an MA in media, works collecting council tax, I've got an MSc in marine biology and work in real estate. My point is that a degree Jana subject doesn't guarantee a career in it and it saddles your with a load of debt.

I actually think this is fair enough, but also think that disability should be taken into account.

@User76745333

Tbh if kids realised that they could earn £60k as a builder or £28k as an office worker in a graduate role I’m sure far more would decide that a degree isn’t all its cracked up to be and that the universities are money making organisations.

This! Except that the graduate office workers will have £50k of student debt too.

University has absolutely become a money making racket. Many graduate office workers would have left school at 16 a generation ago and done similar level first jobs.

I can't even accept the better educated argument when I work with graduates who don't know when to use there or their.

When I went to university, O level Maths and English were basic matriculation requirements for ANY course and every applicant.

That was A Good Thing IMO.

I have a degree 1st class and only have 1 GCE - I went to uni as a mature student - no loan

@titchy

Anecdata doesn't disprove the general rule. Congratulations on your first.

Show me some actual data then that shows people with no M or E GCSEs fail their degrees courses. Oh you can't. What a surprise.

That question shows a woeful understanding of the actual issue, which is whether going to university and getting a degree will improve employment and earnings outcomes for the student. The point I originally made. Universities must demonstrate their graduates get value from their degrees and the data shows that widening participation - including contextual offers - leads to more graduates in non-graduate jobs.

This is the go to site for analysis btw. wonkhe.com

I think kids who don’t get expected level in KS2 should be offered an extra year in primary. otherwise they would get further behind. Additional year to be taken any time in secondary school may also be helpful as kids can have stressful periods due to illness or family problems.

A good portion of our trainee nurses are mature students.

AFAIK the policy does not apply to mature students.

There is a lot higher content in the new 9-1 GCSEs and they are no longer modular. However the % you need for a grade 4 is woefully low. You really don't need to understand the whole course content at all. In fact I know of Maths teachers telling students to only focus on 'getting to the staples.' That is , focusing on only the first half of the paper where the easier questions are. The second half include challenging questions intended to stretch those who will get grades 7-9.

This ideology of not letting students have loans without GCSEs will keep people who have potential out of uni due to their life circumstances which is discrimination.

I absolutely agree the effects could be discriminatory but I think the effort should be to give every child the right opportunities from birth. Trying to fix the problem at 18 is so much harder.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Apprenticeships are becoming more a thing though. DH’s accountancy firm are taking on more students from A-levels rather than degree. You can be a qualified accountant and earning the respective salary at the same age as someone coming out of university who still has to do the qualification and who has a student debt to pay off

Sounds like an excellent scheme and I only wish it was more common - except that it would need a lot more effort and funding and it doesn't seem the kind of headline government are interested in ATM

This is actually more common than you'd think ...most of not all of the big accountancy (and a fair medium/ small size) firms will offer apprenticeships, you train on the job and do a qualification prior to a chartered qualification.

@UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea

A good portion of our trainee nurses are mature students.

AFAIK the policy does not apply to mature students.

They don’t seem to have published the paper yet, just floated it as a populist notion. So nobody knows who it will apply to or how.

GCSE Maths and English is a basic level. No one should be allowed to study further if they can't attain that level.

@stregadelcucito

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

There is no state funding for courses above a certain level for kids who do not pass maths and English.

So progressing beyond L2 can be difficult.

However, in an FE college any student should be able to access Functional Skills which is often far easier for kids with multiple fails at GCSE It can be easier for kids with other issues too.

passfunctionalskills.co.uk/functional-skills-english-level-2/writing-the-exam

There are youtube videos too. It might help.

The only other course is to try again as an adult (varying ages, 19, 21 and 23, depending on what kind of course, fudning etc) Have a look at your local Access course and see what their specific requirements and units are. They often require an English and/or maths assessment, but it is more to assess what additinal support will be needed rather than being an entry requirement - the entry requirement is usually simply being over 19 years old.

I hope that helped a little bit.

When I applied (I went in 1979) you had to have specific O levels in various universities including I think maths and English. My father even I believe had to have a language for medical school in the 1940s and had to get confirmed (which he did aged 18) to be allowed into Durham University. He was already baptised C of E as a baby.

My mother had to redo her whole year of school certificate to get better grades before she could get a place at residential teacher training college in the 1940s.

@ThatsNotMyGolem

Student numbers do need to be controlled though. We have too many graduates and not enough skilled labour. Higher education has become an absolute racket. Convincing young people that a degree in some Mickey Mouse subject, which will saddle them with £30k of debt, instead of doing a vocational course or apprenticeship for jobs we're crying out for.

This 100%