I was out with a group of middle aged men last night

[DetailMouse]

And I had a nice evening. We went to see a band in a pub and just by a fluke of who was/wasn't able to make it, I ended up being the only woman.

The youngest was 49 up to 57, I'm at the lower end. One single the rest either married or living with a partner. Two I've known since school although seen little of them in recent years, two I know through a hobby and two I didn't know at all until yesterday.

We all had a lot to drink, they were good company, but not overly charming (which I hate) they are all (I realised afterwards) in surprisingly good shape, not a beer belly between them, especially considering the beer that was consumed last night and had made an effort to be pub smart for a Saturday night.

No one did or said anything inappropriate and no one even came close to making any kind of move on me.

There's no point to the post, except that this is my experience of most men. Have I lead some sort of charmed life or is the picture often painted on here reality for the majority?

@DetailMouse

And I had a nice evening. We went to see a band in a pub and just by a fluke of who was/wasn't able to make it, I ended up being the only woman.

The youngest was 49 up to 57, I'm at the lower end. One single the rest either married or living with a partner. Two I've known since school although seen little of them in recent years, two I know through a hobby and two I didn't know at all until yesterday.

We all had a lot to drink, they were good company, but not overly charming (which I hate) they are all (I realised afterwards) in surprisingly good shape, not a beer belly between them, especially considering the beer that was consumed last night and had made an effort to be pub smart for a Saturday night.

No one did or said anything inappropriate and no one even came close to making any kind of move on me.

There's no point to the post, except that this is my experience of most men. Have I lead some sort of charmed life or is the picture often painted on here reality for the majority?

Where's the like button?

@BringMeTea

So sorry you have had those experiences Clymene. Yes, I think you're completely correct in your assessment. A big 'ol NAMALT fest. As I say, weird af.

@BringMeTea. Why is it weird?

That's my experience of the man I hang around with, I tend to avoid being friends with dickheads.

I still get inappropriate comments and touching in the pub though and have done since I was a teen before someone comes along and says aren't you lucky.

I'm 43 and still waiting to become invisible

@LorelaiDeservedBetter

None of this is complicated. It's disingenuous bullshit to imply it is.

Statistics show men are most likely to commit crimes of violence against women and girls. And the men who commit the crimes, don't walk about with a neon sign saying it's them.

And the funny thing is, even if they did walk around with a neon sign - look at the high profile cases of men in the entertainment industry who have been convicted of abuse - people still fall over themselves to excuse them. So a neon sign wouldn't make a difference to some people because men are more important than women. Some people would rather cling desperately to their delusions than face that reality.

And yy NAMALT - I have brothers and a DH and DS - I love them all dearly. I'm not fucking stupid enough to believe I know what their behaviour is like in all circumstances.

Sometimes I think it's quite sweet that an adult woman can make it through life without being touched by male violence and crime. Unbelievable but sweet. To not know anyone who has been sexually assaulted by their father. To not know anyone who has been murdered by a male stranger. To not know anyone who has been followed by a male or stalked by one. You'd have to live in a seriously small privileged bubble for that to be your experience of life.

This. I don't have a particularly big social circle but know, (directly rather than friends of friends) four women who have been raped. Two by their fathers, one by a stranger and one by a colleague at a work do. Of course, I will know more than four women who have been raped, it's just that I don't know that they have been raped iyswim.

That's not including the women who managed to fight off an attacker, who were in abusive relationships, who had near misses in dodgy situations, and then, of course, the random abuse or aggression from random men, the sexism at work.

Most of my experiences of most men are like yours on that night out OP. But nearly all of my worst experiences have been from men who have treated me like that BECAUSE I am a woman and they are a man.

I'm also old enough to know that some of the men you think are really nice, where you think their partner is so lucky to have them, you may wistfully wish you had got there first, are not what you, or sometimes their partners, think they are.

@DetailMouse

Oh and if it makes a difference, I'm a widow, which according to a number of threads on here makes me appear easy prey.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest widows are targeted by a particular type of male. It doesn't obviously mean that all men are like that. Lots of other groups of people can be vulnerable / targeted too. But great that the male friends you have are ok. I'm not really sure of the point you are trying to make. Clearly it's not all men who behave like this. But it's certainly some men who do.

Not unusual they would be good company for a evening, doing something you all enjoy, its a fairly low bar. Not unusual they put their best shirts on either, or they didn't come on to you, given you're their mate, know their circumstances and are their own age. Very unusual that they were trim looking, as this is not the norm for men of that age.

Tis the norm for me, and every man or woman I know. All my friends go to great events with men they know. Dh and every man he knows go to similar great events with their work colleagues, all the men they know. It's the norm, shame if it isn't.

What a weird post and some unpleasant replies that mock people who do have justified grievances with inappropriate men! Some internalised misogyny there too, spouting the usual blurb about men-hating blablabla By the very nature of this site, content may come across as skewered but this is due to the fact that far more people tend to post about problems and issues they had. There is little need or reason to post about every day mundane and normal interactions. It really devalues the immense support and help this site has provided to women in desperate situations.

They don't use prostitutes or go to strip clubs or have affairs and they've all been married for many years

How on earth do you know they don't have affairs!? I can assure you that some really, really nice, kind, supportive, loving men who describe their wife as their 'best friend' also have affairs!

I would also say that it is perhaps only when a woman complains about the way a man has treated her, that we really see the extent of the structural conditioning that supports men against women in terms of behaviour. There is the civility that we all understand and tut tut against (builders saying ‘smile, luv’) and then there is the real, twisted violent physical and mental abuse that exists that actually I think most people don’t know how to deal with. Decent men included so they collide without intending to.

Collude

Sounds completely normal to me, too. I was out in a busy city centre pub last night watching the boxing. It was full of young and middle aged blokes. I was treated with courtesy and respect by all. I can only apologise for the fact that my experience doesn’t fit the misandrist MN narrative.

@MeaCuppa

Come to think of it this thread has a whiff of "all the men I know are good so those nasty feminists must be exaggerating " about it ...

Doesn’t it just.

This.

A gentle way to quietly shame women for speaking of their bad experiences of men...

I don't hate men, I hate abuse, misogyny, chauvinism, sexism, feminine socialisation etc.

Most men are great, but for example, you say the guys were all dressed smartly? I'd inevitably end up wondering, did the wives do their laundry, ironing and possibly shoe polishing for them? Because in most of the relationships I know, the woman does all that.

I've had a few male friends over the years that I eventually distanced myself from, when I started learning more about them, and certain attitudes/expectations they had. I was just a mate, and often seen as one of the boys, but rarely as gf/wife material, or even fuck buddy material.

Also, my ex was a charming bastard, the life and soul of the party, not a nasty word to say about anyone, great sense of humour, great taste in clothes. But he was a completely different man once he got home, especially when he'd been out drinking and acting Mr. Wonderful. It wasn't until we broke up, and he starting taking his shit out on friends (much lower level though), that people started to get a glimpse of the real him. Sorry my point is, even if someone (male or female), seems lovely, you can never truly know what goes on behind closed doors. One of the big issues women have, is not being believed, "he would never do that".

I know a few pervs (much older than me), who like to wait until they're alone with me, before being inappropriate. One guy in work (married, with a dd who's older than me), waits until we're in the cctv blind spots, to rub my back in a seemingly re-assuring way (I just know he's feeling to see if I'm wearing a bra, which I'm usually not). Sometimes he hugs me, or tries to kiss my cheek .

@JaninaDuszejko

Gen X men are the best.

Maybe that's it. I've some very good, decent male friends, all Gen X. It's the best generation

I don't understand. Are we supposed to be impressed that they didn't assault you?

Obviously people who feel unsafe around men they don't know, normally aren't in situations where they're surrounded by their other male friends and in a nice public space, as you were.

Nobody thinks most men attack women most of the time? It's more than if you're out alone with men you don't know there's a chance that they might harm you.

Imagine posting hey everyone I was out last night with a group of DS's teenagers and not one of them stabbed me or offered me cocaine! I guess that teenage crime really is just prejudice, eh?

@MrsBerthaRochester

Yawn. Yet another NAMALT thread. Do you think these men behave the same way when its just them with no women present? I bet they dont. I bey they dont call out their mates when they are making sexist comments,catcalling or groping women. Im betting the majority of them have procured the use of a womans body by financial means, be that going to a lap dancing bar or using an escort. Because when men hang out with men there is a pack mentality and hey lads will be lads. Men dont have to constantly on their guard for fear of being raped. So yes it IS all men. Because men are coluding in this behaviour day in day out.

How dare you. I know you won't believe this because obviously ad a male I am lying and gaslighting but i myself or to my knowlege any of mymale friends have ever set foot in lap dancing club or procured an escort. If I found out one had we would not be friends much longer. Some men may but not all. If that's your views I feel sorry for any males in your life knowing you think so poorly of them. This is nothing but sexist.

I'm also surprised that you would think that the way these men behaved with you on one evening had any particular relevance to male bad behaviour. Even the worst of them are capable of behaving themselves in front of certain women. You would probably have fallen into the 'women like the wife' category, older, 'nice', and they may well have censored themselves in front if you. The real test is how they'd behave without you there, around younger women, women they wanted to pull, or when the only women present don't matter (bar staff, waitresses) You would need to meet them as a woman in one of those categories to accurately judge what they were like.

It's circle the oestrogen wagons around men, day.

This properly made me laugh out loud!

"Most men are great, but for example, you say the guys were all dressed smartly? I'd inevitably end up wondering, did the wives do their laundry, ironing and possibly shoe polishing for them? Because in most of the relationships I know, the woman does all that."

Does this still go on? My wife never did any of that for me!

@LivingDeadGirlUK

Yep that sounds pretty normal!

Would absolutely be my experience too.

I have come across the odd sleaze through work etc, but nothing like what gets described on here.

As a single woman needing help moving flats etc. I always had great help from male friends and I always had very respectful men as friends.

Lucky I guess.
My sons have really lovely young men in their large circle of friends too.

Thank you @Zwellers, "as a male" was first item on my bingo list for this thread, and cry of sexism was the second. So glad the males have arrived to tell us what to think. Do you want to also tick off the third item, and tell me that many women lie about being raped to frame men?

'How dare you' lmao

NAMALT like almost everyone 'like that' is a man. HTH.

Glad you are better than those silly women who get beaten and raped - a better judge of character and a better fun and just generally better. Lucky you, aren't you great. Those stupid women who get battered, raped and abused probably deserve it, for not having such a great bunch of man mates as you, you special magical pixie you.