I was out with a group of middle aged men last night

[DetailMouse]

And I had a nice evening. We went to see a band in a pub and just by a fluke of who was/wasn't able to make it, I ended up being the only woman.

The youngest was 49 up to 57, I'm at the lower end. One single the rest either married or living with a partner. Two I've known since school although seen little of them in recent years, two I know through a hobby and two I didn't know at all until yesterday.

We all had a lot to drink, they were good company, but not overly charming (which I hate) they are all (I realised afterwards) in surprisingly good shape, not a beer belly between them, especially considering the beer that was consumed last night and had made an effort to be pub smart for a Saturday night.

No one did or said anything inappropriate and no one even came close to making any kind of move on me.

There's no point to the post, except that this is my experience of most men. Have I lead some sort of charmed life or is the picture often painted on here reality for the majority?

I don't hate all men. I don't hate most men. I don't think I hate many men at all, in fact. I've been a registered and regular user here since 2005, and lurked for several years before then, and I've seen no evidence of MNers hating men, let alone all of them.

OP, yes, that's my experience of a night out with a load of since, but only since I got married. Before that, through my teens, 20s and most of my 30s, it wasn't.

SallyWD
Most of the men I know are just nice, kind guys.
When they're with you?

Given the stigma of bad relationships, financial problems, addictions etc. are you confident that this is true of them in most meaningful contexts?

////

I think it's important to remember that the men who assault, cat call, upskirt, spike drinks, grope, rape and worse, have mums, sisters, daughters. Some of who could be MNers. They're not all on another planet.

@Gwenhwyfar

Normal for me, but that's because men don't fancy me.

This - perhaps none of them found you attractive. This is not rude but could be a factor?

Bizarre thread.

...with a load of men.... not with a load of since

It sounds like what you are asking is if women who have had a lot of bad experiences are lying about it.

MRsBertha - not all men behave like that, not all men are rapists, sexist ffs.

This is just getting out of hand in society in general - my 21yr old niece - told my 14yr ( tall son) that all men were potential rapists and he was one too. She told him she was scared of all men at all times and boys like hi should have a curfew.

She fed this boy, adores him and they are good friends. In the last two years has become rabid and ant men ( has boyfriends and is v heterosexual herself)

I can tell you who is inappropriate. I have watched my son be approached by teen girls 13+ and women in their early 20s more recently - who inappropriately touch him, place hands on his legs, stroke his chest etc etc - blatantly ask him out for a drink, go on a date.
I have been sneered at by these females when I say back off he was 13, now 14yrs.
2 yrs ago he was embarrassed but polite, now he has hit puberty full on and understands more what is going on.
I no longer answer for him if it happens - after I heard his put down - sorry not sure Iam ready for a cougar yet.

Not all men are sexist, potential rapists etc - I fear for my boys and the society they are growing up in, that they are being labelled at such a young age.

Females are capable of sexual assault, sexism and bad behaviour just like males

l don' t get drawn in to it, l would hate to have the attitude of some on here, and thankfully my other female groups are alot more open minded and interesting.

@Moonface123

l don' t get drawn in to it, l would hate to have the attitude of some on here, and thankfully my other female groups are alot more open minded and interesting.

Are you saying women who have had bad experiences should be more open minded?

Are you suggesting that because you had a nice night with nice men that no one is ever abused, attacked, raped or assaulted?

My house has never been broken into but that doesn’t mean burglars don’t exist! It also doesn’t mean I’m better at looking after my house, or less attractive to burglars.

@DetailMouse

I didn't have a point. As I said I was interested I whether I've been particularly lucky or whether my experience is more common than it setimes seems.

I don't feel unsafe in the company of men and my life would be poorer for it if I did.

Yes, you have been lucky. Would you like a sticker? A badge? Some kind of certificate?

@MrsBerthaRochester

Yawn. Yet another NAMALT thread. Do you think these men behave the same way when its just them with no women present? I bet they dont. I bey they dont call out their mates when they are making sexist comments,catcalling or groping women. Im betting the majority of them have procured the use of a womans body by financial means, be that going to a lap dancing bar or using an escort. Because when men hang out with men there is a pack mentality and hey lads will be lads. Men dont have to constantly on their guard for fear of being raped. So yes it IS all men. Because men are coluding in this behaviour day in day out.

What makes you think they behave any differently? I don't behave differently when I'm out with my mates and yes we do call men out for being pricks. No I've never procured a woman's body either unless you include the reading of Razzle when I was 15. And the attitude of lads will be lads has had it's day. I agree that some men collude but more and more don't and actively call out other men.

It’s the intense focus on the negative behaviour rather than the focus on the positive behaviour that socially we all aim for that’s caused this idea that all men are monsters, I think. But then focussing on the positive meant the negative got hidden, explained away, buried.

There has to be a better solution. If all men feel that they are viewed negatively that’s a hard thing to navigate.

On a related note, I saw an advert for prostate cancer last night that emphasised how precious boys and men are to us, how much their health matters. It was unusual in that it really centred around this idea that men’s health matters to - as though it was a response to men feeling that they weren’t important as women in terms of health. That’s definitely something that we’ve noticed in our family where the boys have spoken up and said the emotional support is always focused around the girls (true) as they are needier and ask for the support. The males don’t and we make assumptions on this.

The thing is OP, a lot of shitty behaviour isn’t something blokes are doing with other blokes who know their wives/partners on a night out . If you think about posts on mumsnet It’s often the secretive and domestic stuff- sexting-webcamming- secret gambling - unrevealed debts, emotional affairs, daily hardcore porn, aggressive and moody when at home , doing bugger all childcare etc . None of these marriage wrecking kind of behaviours are obvious on a night out with mates .

There is a hashtag #notjustanother doing the rounds today. I’d take a look at that. Lots of wonderful men out there but my god don’t be naive enough to think you don’t know any of the rapists, violent abusers, ones who like children, ones who cheat on their wives, ones who visit prostitutes and many many more. I worked with a serial killer about 25 years ago he was just like the men you describe up there and until a young woman was found murdered with his DNA on her poor battered body, until he was linked to one of the most prolific rape sprees of the time nobody had an inkling. Glad you had a nice night though. I wonder how many women didnt.

I experienced horrendous behaviour from men from my teens through to early 30s, the older I got the less and less this happened. I'm now a similar age to you and it never happens.
I'm not sure that this is because I'm surrounded by different men.

VERY weird thread. MRAs on a jolly? The female ones too.

• Add message | Report | Message poster | Quote | See all MrsBerthaRochester Sun 20-Feb-22 15:35:45 Yawn. Yet another NAMALT thread. Do you think these men behave the same way when its just them with no women present? I bet they dont. I bey they dont call out their mates when they are making sexist comments,catcalling or groping women. Im betting the majority of them have procured the use of a womans body by financial means, be that going to a lap dancing bar or using an escort. Because when men hang out with men there is a pack mentality and hey lads will be lads

I’m sorry you’ve had such bad experiences of men.

Like OP, I’ve worked in a male dominated industry for nearly 30 years. What you describe does not describe the vast majority of men I’ve known and worked/been friends with. They don’t modulate their behaviour because I am around. I’ve been in groups of men who do the things you describe but it’s rare.

In my experience the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' tend to hang out with each other, so if your friends/colleagues tend to be mostly 'good' then you won't see so much bad behaviour.

@dreamingbohemian. That’s a good point. When I think about it, the more predatory/turned out to be cheating types that I know do tend to hang out together, whereas the nicer ones have their own friendship group.

Sounds normal to me. I have lots of platonic male friends

The female ones too.

Ahh yes of course, people aren’t allowed to share their experiences without being labelled in some way.

It’s my experience too 8 out of 10 times, but it’s the minority 2 times when men are being disgusting creepy letches that I remember the most. It’s like majority of time you can drive a car and not see or be in an accident. But the memories that stick are the horror times, not the nice times.

So how do you deal with this cognitive dissonance in society? In ourselves? The knowledge that we know some men are decent yet have to work in a world where we are vulnerable to the worst ones?

I find it really difficult. I grew up in London and at a young age remember quite disparaging, sexist comments towards me in jobs. Now I’m a professional I still find it hard to not see that side of men or feel it is there if you scratch the surface. Not all men at all, but a certain type of obvious man. The thing that really scares me are the type who are nice to your face but sabotage you behind your back. I just don’t know how you navigate this anymore.

That's my experience of spending time with my male friends, most of whom I've known for nearly 40 years. I love them. They don't use prostitutes or go to strip clubs or have affairs and they've all been married for many years.

I've also been raped twice, been sexually assaulted on multiple occasions, been discriminated against in work and suffered numerous mansplaining attempts.

I'm not sure what your point is. Unless it's just a Not All Men writ large?

I was out with a mixed group last night, all friends. No bother. Dh was on a stag do, I went to pick him up at the end of my night and they invited me in to have a last drink with them (I know a few of them very well) all pissed, all behaved well. Friday was similar, I went out with DH and a different bunch of mates but the two wives who were supposed to be going had to cancel so I was out with just blokes. Never had any issues.
The only friend we are concerned about atm is a very good male friend of DH who is seeing a woman who obviously has major issues, so many red flags.
It doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that I don't believe people.

So sorry you have had those experiences Clymene. Yes, I think you're completely correct in your assessment. A big 'ol NAMALT fest. As I say, weird af.