DH considering becoming a doctor

[pinkgingham]

Posting here in case anyone has experience/advice they can share.

DH is 37 and in a fairly good career type role but it doesn't motivate him (it could uncharitably be called a bullshit job).

He wanted to study medicine at uni but instead did politics (got some dodgy career advice at school and was the first in his family to go uni).

He's wanted to retrain for many years but it didn't make sense whilst we were trying to buy a house, have kids etc.

He's now considering it properly for the first time. Unfortunately he has had to spend a lot of time in hospital recently due to serious illness in his family and it's really brought home to him that what the medical staff do is so meaningful, which is a direct contrast to his job (in his view).

We've worked out that we could afford to live on my salary for a few years if needed whilst he was studying, I appreciate that the hours are crazy and sometimes unpredictable and that it would put a lot more of the childcare burden on me. I still think it's worth it though as he has a lot of years left to work and you only get one life and it's a long time to waste in a job you think is meaningless. He would love to do it but is always more cautious than me.

Is this totally mad? Do people actually do this at 37? What do we need to consider?

Or a paramedic.

www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/allied-health-professionals/roles-allied-health-professions/roles-allied-health-professions/paramedic/paramedic

Are any of the people saying ‘go for it’ actually drs or even closely linked to any dr? All the drs or partners of or parents of have at best said ‘be very aware of what you are taking on’. Not one dr has said ‘go for it’.

DH is 37 and in a fairly good career type role but it doesn't motivate him I think you’ll find that many senior drs are completely demotivated. I’ve worked with so so many drs who wished they could do something else…..but by the time theyve made it to consultant level and have a family and a lifestyle dependent on their salary (and in almost every case the dr-male or female- is the main wage earner) the options to move into a different career, without taking an astronomical pay cut, are very limited.

GP is a shorter route but there is a reason they are leaving in droves.

As I said upthread consider allied HCP roles. Aside from the shorter courses, less gruelling schedule and less debt the ability to move into the private sector is easier. As a dr you will struggle to set up any private practice until you are a consultant ie at least 10 years post graduation. Physios, OTs, speech therapists, nurses (not physicians associates) can move into independent
Private practice very quickly and earn a lot of money. We know a nursing couple who had moved from nursing into R&D of spinal implants. They just bought a £1m house.I also know a brilliant mental health nurse who has just left the nhs to set up his own private practice- he’ll be charging at least £40/he and choosing when he wants to work, and he’ll have a waiting list. I wouldn’t recommend nursing as a career but as a stepping stone degree.
As the nhs collapses the demand for private physio/OT/ST/mental health services will go through the roof and now would be a perfect time to invest in that sort of career change. Drs on the other hand will still have some dreadful lock in clause meaning they are flogged for 10 years post graduation before being able to leave the nhs.

DSGR

So much negativity on this thread. My friend did this early 30s, loves it, hasn’t looked back. Still married with children.
If this is your DH’s calling (and it sounds like it is) do you really want to stop him?“

Yep. He won’t be the first, by many.

We’ve moved around the country for 34 years and my husband’s job has nothing to do with medicine. We’ve lived apart all week for several years. I’ve carried the childcare, house maintenance, well pretty much everything.

We’re together 24/7 now, working from home ad infinitum, kids grown up and happy. We love each other more than ever.

Some people can make these situations work and work well. Others can’t. Only you know your own characters 🤷‍♀️

Though poor career advice is sadly all too common, I’ve more than once pointed out to a student that in order to study Medicine one should do science A levels, only to be told they don’t like science.
A year down the line they were complaining they couldn’t apply to medical school.

@GreenLunchBox

37 is too old Nevermind the fact that Graduate medicine is ridiculously competitive

Why is it too old? That’s very ageist. So because it’s competitive he just shouldn’t bother?

My DH did graduate medicine & there were several people in their 40s on his course. It’s not too late. We had DC1 in his first year, DC2 in FY1 and DC3 in ST1.

However medical school (4 years for graduate medicine) is the easy best, the foundation years & training were incredibly hard for us as a family. People are right about the risk of having to move or work away from home, although this worked out fine for us - we moved out of London after medical school & picked a location that had a lot of hospitals within reach in order to hopefully avoid any location issues.

IIRC it’s possible to do FY training part time with special circumstances, certainly it’s possible to doing ST part time. If you can manage on your wage long term that would make family life easier.

@Fluffycloudland77

I think you’d be mad to sign up for medicine, I hope it’s not true some of them work 90+ hour weeks because that’s inhumane.

I’m coming out of healthcare because it’s not rewarding, the patients rarely take the advice you offer, they talk to you like shit, I’ve been sexually assaulted, kept from leaving a clinic by a recently released prisoner who took pleasure in telling me no one knew I was in that room or would look for me at home time, physically assaulted, had my car vandalised because it was in the staff car park, been bullied by a manager, seen good members of staff harassed out of jobs because their ill and will need an early pension.

It’s not what he thinks.

I also left a few years ago because the working conditions were unsafe, Fluffy. Patient ratios down the tubes, too many agency workers (can’t do certain tasks like IV’s, don’t know where anything is, don’t know the routine, basically pointless and just make more work for the 1 contracted RN rota-ed), bed issues so unsuitable patients ‘temporarily’ on the ward until an appropriate bed comes up for them. Basically, if you get to the end of your shift without filing a critical incident, it’s gone well. No thanks.

A note about GEM entrance requirements...

Most GEM degrees require not only related a levels but also that your original degree was a science one.

Those that don't require a science based degree generally require at least a chemistry a level.

That leaves only a handful (or less) of unis which take GEM applicants without either. These will generally insist on the GAMSAT.

But not all of them, some will want the UKCAT. (I've not encounted the BMAT as a requirement for these)

@FazedNotPhased said everything I was going to say. I had to give up my career because I cannot do all the childcare as well - I was a teacher and DH's constantly changing rota meant I couldn't get any work done outside school hours. We have moved 4 times since he started training and have at least 2 more moves before he is a consultant. When my DS starts school that means even more upheaval for him, which I can do nothing to prevent.

It's exhausting doing all the housework, every bed time etc all the time with no respite. I don't even get 10 minutes to myself most days, exercise is impossible, having a bath is impossible. And even when he is home he has so much work to do on his portfolio or revising for exams, he's really not very present. The other day he had to ask me where he could find a baby grow to change the baby, as he has never had occasion to look for one before. Baby is one next week. The kids miss him, my DS never knows whether Daddy is at work in the hospital, at work in his study, or asleep on night shifts, and by the way keeping a toddler and baby quiet whilst Daddy works or sleeps is very challenging... and as for my poor husband, he is beyond exhausted and the antisocial hours are literally shortening his life.

Sorry to be a Debbie downer but there it is. I am immensely proud of my lovely husband and grateful there are people like him in the NHS. But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with a young family.

Rachel Clarke is a Dr who was previously a journalist and retrained . She's written a book also.

I haven’t read thru the thread but DONT DO IT

I’m a GP, altho I’m on a career break post maternity at the moment. I absolutely hate my job, the environment, and the nhs. I could list a million reasons why it sucks and is a bad idea. Medicine isn’t a calling anymore, it’s a shit show where staff are continually abused and the whole system is fucked. Oh do I sound bitter and burnt out? Yup.

I've been a doctor for 25 years. Absolutely no way would I condsider starting out on this path at 37 with a family.
Even after the 4/5 years of med school it will be a long hard slog, of up 8 years depending what specialty he choses of more training , working ridiculous housrs PLUS studying like med for more exams in his own time.
I am very senior now, but even so it is currenly a ridicuously stresful job. Long hours, high burn out levels, understaffed and under resourced all addiing to the burden of stress. And mostly it is my family that pays the price.
Yes its rewarding, but tbh I wish id done something else as I feel my family has suffered from it. And absolutely no way would I consider doing the most stressful first 15 years at 37 with a family.

Posted too soon!

The GAMSAT is a 5 hour exam which requires up to undergraduate level knowledge of all 3 sciences. It also has essay questions. And maths needs to be up to speed.

The UKCAT is a timed computer based exam, not necessarily difficult questions re knowledge but each has to be answered v quickly.

Most people need to study to pass the GAMSAT, which is percentile graded so the pass make changes each time, based on the average attained by those who sit it. Each university will then set their own mark requirement below which you won't be considered.

His application also won't be successful without significant work experience and proof that he's committed to the career.

So, bear in mind all of this and the increased competition for the very few places available on a GEM which doesn't require a science background. Even if he meets requirements, it's a numbers game.

You can get a tuition fee loan for the GEM course now but I don't know if you're entitled to loan for living costs too.

As well as household costs, he would been to fund books and study materials and travel costs as a minimum while studying. The intensity of the course means he probably won't be able to work alongside it and indeed employment is discouraged by unis for this reason.

An alternative route would be a standard 5 year medical degree, with a foundation year beforehand if he doesn't meet the entry requirements. So 6 years at uni. However, I don't think he'd be entitled to student funding for th traditional route.

Hi there OP. I started grad medicine aged 36 and recently graduated. Had a few babies along the way as well. Really glad I did. You sound like a really supportive partner, which is exactly what’s needed, and I have been lucky to have too.

Feel free to DM me if you want to chat more.

Lots of competition for ANP/physician associate posts from people with years of clinical experience.
It's not like you can just walk into these jobs/courses nowadays. He'll need to demonstrate a real passion for this kind of work to get a look in - it's fine saying he wants to do something more socially productive having visited relatives in hospital but how does he prove that ? It's what everyone says and needs to be backed up by evidence.
I'm always a bit cynical by posts from folk in their late 30/40s suddenly wanting to go into medicine specifically. Plenty of more realistic opportunities in other areas of health care without the prestige of medicine...

My husband works in a profession with comparable hours/shift patterns/stress as a doctor. It's utterly shit and I hate it. Never gets the leave he asks for, works really unsociable hours, nights, weekends, public holidays etc. it really doesn't mesh well with family life and causes a lot of resentment.

The older I get, the more I realise just how important work life balance is. Your husband won't get that as a doctor and you will be left picking up all the slack.

I haven't read the full thread so apologies if this has already been suggested. Has he considered pharmacy?

I'm a hospital pharmacist and find it really fulfilling, there's a lot more patient input than people think.

Degree is 4 years plus a pre-registration year and entry exam so 5 years in total. The hours are generally 9-5 (with some weekends and on call but not enough to be detrimental to my family life). If you want to progress in hospital you need the clinical diploma which is 2 years, I'm currently doing this at the age of 35 because I changed sectors. It's hard work with kids but I'm generally enjoying it.

After diploma I'm free to apply for band 7 or higher and I'll have an independent prescribing qualification (which is now being built into the degree anyway).

Long story short it's a much shorter training pathway than medicine with potential for a high paying and satisfying career which suits family life.

I'll stop selling my profession now 😂

No, I don't thinks it's good idea.

It will be immensely hard on you OP. It will be very hard for dh too. Financially it will be very hard. Then in 12 years when he is finally earning good money as a consultant it will still be incredibly hard. All the consultant doctors I know are burnt out and fed up.

A PP poster mentioned getting into politics and trying to sort out the NHS. I think this would be a much more valuable role. We need determined, intelligent people, who give a shit, heading up these organisations.

@Didyousaynutella

Has he thought about training as a physicians associate? It’s a relatively new profession. Sort of bridge between nurse and Dr in terms of autonomy. It pays band 7 when qualified (38-46k). They take on graduates. Not sure what sort of degree you need. Obviously not as as lucrative in the long term as a Dr but a hell of a lot less pain getting qualified.

It's a 2 year postgrad degree but you need an undergrad degree in bio-science.

I did it when much younger (25 when I started GEM) and at the time would’ve told him to go for it, age was no issue at medical school. But training has been exhausting even while young and childless. As PP have pointed out, there is limited say in where you work while training. Even if you get assigned to the region that you live in, you may have to move around hospitals or be put in the one that is 1.5 hrs commute away from your house.
Also if he’s worked in a private company and used to being respected as an adult, or given any kind of perks (by that I mean even free tea and coffee or a desk/computer to do his work at) he may struggle with how shit working for the NHS is.
I’d recommend ‘This is going to hurt’ on the BBC now for a pretty good idea of how much it fucks any normality of life while training and the bullying and how unsupported you are.

I would say read 'this is going to hurt' by Adam Kay. I think it's brutal but it is a realistic representative of the situation in medicine.

I would not recommend being a dr later in life. It is currently an awful job with loads of stress and responsibility but no control and constant pressure. Look at BMA and GMC for recent reports on morale etc

Physician associate is a good idea as lots of hands on work and connecting with patients . After training they are Band 6-7. Can also then train to be a ACP which is band 8. Major Advantage is that once you are qualified you have control where you work location wise . They are now being employed in many different specialties so interesting career. Also in general practice so they don't work nights - great advantage.

A paramedic career might also be worth thinking about although again v stressful

I doubt anything you say will stop him. My DH had a bullshit high earning job and re-trained (not medicine), 2 years of training then obviously at the bottom of the pay scale. It wasn’t easy, but does mean he can retire early on a full pension.

I think you have to be a special kind of person to be a doctor, it’s insanely competitive, a family member was rejected from some of the best unis but ended up at one of the biggest names. He’s finding it extremely intense, but is the type to obsessively study from day one.

Good luck with whatever you both decide.

Also, it should be him researching all this and telling you. Not you researching it.

If he is not that bothered to do all the research and show how it can work, he is obviously not that fussed.

The biggest issue in the NHS isn’t staff. It’s MANAGEMENT. Policies pushing out loyal, well trained staff, working them to death etc. Pumping out more individual HCP isn’t the answer if they’re just going to be sent through the mill only to leave at the other end.

I can 100% guarantee that a systemic change and advocacy is harder then just ‘becoming a doctor’. And while it sounds less glamorous will have a much, much, bigger impact on people’s lives. Dealing with all the bureaucracy, politics etc is a skill.

Please direct your husband towards one of these jobs, people like him are sorely needed.