Rude 4 year old.

[ImFree2doasiwant]

I'm at my wits end with him. Dc1 is not like it at all, never has been. Ds2 has been doted on,and somewhat indulged as a toddler, by GPS but still had the same upbringing as ds1.

DM picks both dc up from school for me 1 day a week. There is literally no way around this other than me giving up work, and being unable to pay the mortgage.

Each time, I'm getting home to find he's refused to eat dinner, has been rude, and badly behaved. He refuses to say goodbye, or days it in such an offhand unpleasant way. It's upsetting my parents, and it's upsetting me that I'm stuck in this situation.

Hes said that he wants me to pick him up. I do all drop offs and all pick ups apart from this 1

I don't know how to deal with it.

@Thinkbiglittleone

No, he won’t. He won’t make the connection that ‘not saying goodbye’ means hours later ‘no favourite toy’.

Why is it hour later ? It's done there and then ?

Why would it be, if he’s being punished for not saying ‘goodbye’?

Wow these comments are a surprise, i dont agree with all this, he is not happy and you can only meet that with extra love, attention, hugs.. i find they need a bit extra extra at this age for some reason

And it’s still a punishment for something he can’t control. It’s a negative reinforcement, not a positive one.

Again, most 4 year olds can control being rude. They need help learning how to display their emotions, if you display them badly and are angry and rude a consequence of that is e.g loose a toy

Obviously good behaviour is praised, but bad behaviour has consequences.

If you do it on a good way, lots of praise,

Op does your mum think he's rude, would she back a punishment to take place if he doesn't say goodbye?
Have his toy taken away or a time out?

Or can she shrug off his four year old "behavior"??

@Thinkbiglittleone

And it’s still a punishment for something he can’t control. It’s a negative reinforcement, not a positive one.

Again, most 4 year olds can control being rude. They need help learning how to display their emotions, if you display them badly and are angry and rude a consequence of that is e.g loose a toy

Obviously good behaviour is praised, but bad behaviour has consequences.

If you do it on a good way, lots of praise,

No, they can’t. They’re too reactive aged four to be able to control their emotions because of the threat of a punishment.

You sound aggressive and just want a quick sort. Maybe there's something more to this than you think? Your son going through something? He's 4 years old somethings bothering him

Thinking big little one,

Not I've of your posts has actually sought to get to the bottom of why he's doing this?

Don't you think some investigation should go on first before jumping on with punishments and boundaries and consequences??

Why would it be, if he’s being punished for not saying ‘goodbye’?

So I'm assuming in this instance you give, while OP think he's rude for not saying bye, it's when nanny is leaving and mum is there to collect him, so he's either at home or just going home - not hours later.
Ours and the ones we know can definitely remember that long.

Or if it's for the other behaviour OP mentions, it happens there and then while under nannies supervision.

My 5yo could have behaved like this last year. She was exhausted by reception, emotional about upheaval and just much less emotionally mature than she presented as on the surface. For both my kids, “rudeness” is generally about either restraint collapse as above, or anxiety - they dig in when they feel anxious. It took me aaaaages with my oldest child to recognise her “rudeness” and “defiance” was in fact about deep rooted anxiety.

I would if possible take a relaxed, playful approach to the bad behaviour. Praise the positive. When he’s cheerful, ask about the behaviour that happens when he isn’t. What does he think is going on?

Also I would try and bolster any bonding between him and his grandma; anything they can do together etc on those nights so he feels extra supported? Even if it’s just “Wednesday hot choc and snuggles” or whatever.

Agree make it clear you aren’t going to change to picking him up; you can empathise while also emphasising you both miss him and yet enjoy what you’re doing instead on that evening (I always think this stings less than “I wish I could too, I hate work”). And ringfence special time with him.

I know you think it’s bad behaviour to be managed, and I do agree in setting clear expectations, but his behaviour is an expression of how he’s feeling and connecting to/listening to that will help. When my 5yo is like this sometimes it’s just the letting it out / talking about it that helps.

Good luck op

@Thinkbiglittleone

Why would it be, if he’s being punished for not saying ‘goodbye’?

So I'm assuming in this instance you give, while OP think he's rude for not saying bye, it's when nanny is leaving and mum is there to collect him, so he's either at home or just going home - not hours later.
Ours and the ones we know can definitely remember that long.

Or if it's for the other behaviour OP mentions, it happens there and then while under nannies supervision.

No, he can’t. He won’t make the connection, aged four, between ‘not doing x’ and ‘losing a toy’ later on, even if it’s only ten minutes. It draws out a punishment so you can make a point, and that point will be lost on him because he won’t connect the two things. It won’t change his behaviour because the behaviour has already happened, he can’t go back in time and fix it. And he certainly won’t make the connection, age four, that ‘yesterday I didn’t say bye and lost a toy so I’ll do it differently today’ because the reasons for that behaviour haven’t changed.

That’s why your advice is so poor.

No, they can’t. They’re too reactive aged four to be able to control their emotions because of the threat of a punishment.

4 year olds absolutely know and can all control their manners, they say please and thank you, they say sorry if they hurt another friend, they say excuse me if they burp, they know it's wrong to hit, kick and shout. If they ask for something and forget and you say what should you say they know what they should be saying, to say otherwise is complete tosh of most 4 year olds.

As I said they do need help learning how to express them, that where the teaching and boundaries come in.

As an aside I came on here years ago to ask about my dds reaction at meal times. She would start to twitch in her seat and sometimes storm out the room when nothing was going on except eating!
Some posters told me "what a rude little madam she was", I shouldn't let her get away with it ect.

Then thankfully some more enlightened posters came on to help me actually work out what was going on, why did she storm out at particular points.

Turns out she has misophonia and she couldn't bear the sound of me eating at all! She couldn't handle it!
So I then made sure there was background music on, or the TV and if she wanted to eat elsewhere she could.
We laugh about it now. She still has it but she's learned to deal with it.

@Thinkbiglittleone

No, they can’t. They’re too reactive aged four to be able to control their emotions because of the threat of a punishment.

4 year olds absolutely know and can all control their manners, they say please and thank you, they say sorry if they hurt another friend, they say excuse me if they burp, they know it's wrong to hit, kick and shout. If they ask for something and forget and you say what should you say they know what they should be saying, to say otherwise is complete tosh of most 4 year olds.

As I said they do need help learning how to express them, that where the teaching and boundaries come in.

But that’s not your advice - your advice was to punish him. And these other things - burping (poor behaviour, uncontrollable from a four year old) and saying ‘excuse me’ (immediate, a way of making amends for the ‘poor behaviour’ of involuntary burping) is not how you’re suggesting you see his refusal to say goodbye to his grandparents. You’re suggesting he can control that, and he should be controlled with punishments.

No, he can’t. He won’t make the connection, aged four, between ‘not doing x’ and ‘losing a toy’ later on, even if it’s only ten minutes.

Yes they do, we have one and lots of his friends, it's ridiculous to say otherwise of this age group or even a bit younger. They can remember 10 minutes they can remember much longer.

It draws out a punishment so you can make a point, and that point will be lost on him because he won’t connect the two things.

It won't be lost on him as he is 4, the consequence isn't dragged out to make a point, it is exactly what was explained to them.

It won’t change his behaviour because the behaviour has already happened, he can’t go back in time and fix it.

No, but he will learn from it.

And he certainly won’t make the connection, age four, that ‘yesterday I didn’t say bye and lost a toy so I’ll do it differently today’ because the reasons for that behaviour haven’t changed
No one is talking about yesterday !!
And yes that's exactly what does happen, they think I don't want to loose my toys so I won't shout and stamp my feet and nanny, it's much nicer if I'm kind, we all have fun and I keep my toy.

@Thinkbiglittleone

No, he can’t. He won’t make the connection, aged four, between ‘not doing x’ and ‘losing a toy’ later on, even if it’s only ten minutes.

Yes they do, we have one and lots of his friends, it's ridiculous to say otherwise of this age group or even a bit younger. They can remember 10 minutes they can remember much longer.

It draws out a punishment so you can make a point, and that point will be lost on him because he won’t connect the two things.

It won't be lost on him as he is 4, the consequence isn't dragged out to make a point, it is exactly what was explained to them.

It won’t change his behaviour because the behaviour has already happened, he can’t go back in time and fix it.

No, but he will learn from it.

And he certainly won’t make the connection, age four, that ‘yesterday I didn’t say bye and lost a toy so I’ll do it differently today’ because the reasons for that behaviour haven’t changed
No one is talking about yesterday !!
And yes that's exactly what does happen, they think I don't want to loose my toys so I won't shout and stamp my feet and nanny, it's much nicer if I'm kind, we all have fun and I keep my toy.

No. You’re totally over estimating a four year old’s cognitive development. He won’t make the connection. His behaviour tomorrow wont change because of today’s punishment.

@Thinkbiglittleone

No, he can’t. He won’t make the connection, aged four, between ‘not doing x’ and ‘losing a toy’ later on, even if it’s only ten minutes.

Yes they do, we have one and lots of his friends, it's ridiculous to say otherwise of this age group or even a bit younger. They can remember 10 minutes they can remember much longer.

It draws out a punishment so you can make a point, and that point will be lost on him because he won’t connect the two things.

It won't be lost on him as he is 4, the consequence isn't dragged out to make a point, it is exactly what was explained to them.

It won’t change his behaviour because the behaviour has already happened, he can’t go back in time and fix it.

No, but he will learn from it.

And he certainly won’t make the connection, age four, that ‘yesterday I didn’t say bye and lost a toy so I’ll do it differently today’ because the reasons for that behaviour haven’t changed
No one is talking about yesterday !!
And yes that's exactly what does happen, they think I don't want to loose my toys so I won't shout and stamp my feet and nanny, it's much nicer if I'm kind, we all have fun and I keep my toy.

And not only will he not make the connection, he won’t change his behaviour because he can’t. His reasons for being unhappy haven’t changed. You’ve just made him more unhappy.

And these other things - burping (poor behaviour, uncontrollable from a four year old) and saying ‘excuse me’ (immediate, a way of making amends for the ‘poor behaviour’ of involuntary burping) is not how you’re suggesting you see his refusal to say goodbye to his grandparents

The ones I mentioned were showing they know manners, it is rude not to use your manners. It's not bad behaviour to burp as a 4 year old, it's is good manners to say "excuse me" or the little rhyme they teach in school after. So when reminded they should do so, if you think manners are important.

If you are asked to say bye to your nanny to show good manners and you don't that's rude.

You’re suggesting he can control that, and he should be controlled with punishments.

I'm suggesting he can control being asked to say bye to his nanny. It's a choice he is refusing to do so, the OP thinks that's rude.
He should be taught of the consequence of being rude.

@Thinkbiglittleone

And these other things - burping (poor behaviour, uncontrollable from a four year old) and saying ‘excuse me’ (immediate, a way of making amends for the ‘poor behaviour’ of involuntary burping) is not how you’re suggesting you see his refusal to say goodbye to his grandparents

The ones I mentioned were showing they know manners, it is rude not to use your manners. It's not bad behaviour to burp as a 4 year old, it's is good manners to say "excuse me" or the little rhyme they teach in school after. So when reminded they should do so, if you think manners are important.

If you are asked to say bye to your nanny to show good manners and you don't that's rude.

You’re suggesting he can control that, and he should be controlled with punishments.

I'm suggesting he can control being asked to say bye to his nanny. It's a choice he is refusing to do so, the OP thinks that's rude.
He should be taught of the consequence of being rude.

This is becoming very circular, and your advice is still terrible. Punishing him for his unhappiness is rubbish advice. It won’t change his behaviour, it’ll just make an unhappy four year old even more unhappy. You think ‘control’ is the end point but punishing him won’t make him able to control his emotions.

No. You’re totally over estimating a four year old’s cognitive development. He won’t make the connection. His behaviour tomorrow wont change because of today’s punishment.

No I am not. Again no one mentioned yesterday or tomorrow But their behaviours do change based on consequence to their actions. They learn if I do "x" then I don't get "y"
The same as in my DS class, his class mates are put in a timer and can't play for poor behaviour or they have to stay with a teacher at lunch for poor behaviour. Consequence to action.

[quote ImFree2doasiwant]@TheWayTheLightFalls my mum helps us a lot. She's taken us on holiday, days out, and with childcare.

What consequences though? Early to bed is all I can think that will bother him. (Shares bedroom with older brother , so really notices if goes to bed before him)[/quote]

Don't use early bed as a punishment, that sets him up for bad associations with sleep and bed, his room. A new set of problems. Really, going to bed needs to be a positive event.

How about a simple rule after a chat about the rudeness, along the lines of - You need to be polite to granny, otherwise no tv the next day, type thing?

@Thinkbiglittleone

No. You’re totally over estimating a four year old’s cognitive development. He won’t make the connection. His behaviour tomorrow wont change because of today’s punishment.

No I am not. Again no one mentioned yesterday or tomorrow But their behaviours do change based on consequence to their actions. They learn if I do "x" then I don't get "y"
The same as in my DS class, his class mates are put in a timer and can't play for poor behaviour or they have to stay with a teacher at lunch for poor behaviour. Consequence to action.

But their behaviours do change based on consequence to their actions.

When? If not tomorrow?

This is becoming very circular, and your advice is still terrible. Punishing him for his unhappiness is rubbish advice. It won’t change his behaviour, it’ll just make an unhappy four year old even more unhappy. You think ‘control’ is the end point but punishing him won’t make him able to control his emotions.

It most definitely is. My advice isn't terrible if taken correctly.
Again, I am not punishing him for being sad, he is learning the consequences of bad behaviour not being sad, bad behaviour, I have clearly said (many times) that they need to learn how to express their emotions correctly and it's our job to teach them that, boundaries make for happy kids.

@Thinkbiglittleone

This is becoming very circular, and your advice is still terrible. Punishing him for his unhappiness is rubbish advice. It won’t change his behaviour, it’ll just make an unhappy four year old even more unhappy. You think ‘control’ is the end point but punishing him won’t make him able to control his emotions.

It most definitely is. My advice isn't terrible if taken correctly.
Again, I am not punishing him for being sad, he is learning the consequences of bad behaviour not being sad, bad behaviour, I have clearly said (many times) that they need to learn how to express their emotions correctly and it's our job to teach them that, boundaries make for happy kids.

But you want those boundaries to be set by punishing him until his cognitive development catches up, you don’t want boundaries set by finding out what’s causing the behaviour in the first place.

But you want those boundaries to be set by punishing him until his cognitive development catches up, you don’t want boundaries set by finding out what’s causing the behaviour in the first place.

But they can already make decisions on being rude, so nothing needs to catch up.

It's not just about not saying goodbye. It's the way he behaves for the entire time he's with my mum from when she picks him up to when she leaves. I dont need to list everything, I hope people responding can accept that the behaviour is poor and there is a lot of rudeness involved.

I have replied and thanked everyone for their suggestions, and acknowledged that he is still small, and that because of how he is in general (he's not the worrier of the family) it comes as a surprise a bit when he is in fact bothered by things, and may well be acting out with my mum. I think he probably misses his time with her, and may be finding school more of a strain than is obvious. I will try to get to the bottom of the behaviour and see what we can all do to help him with it.