Tustin and Hughes thread 2

[Bagelsandbrie]

Continued from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4416690-Emma-Tustin-is-a-murderer

Nail no, just the word scribbled.. Scared.
Yes it's astonishing the notes not taken as lost and quickly found. They are covering their arses and I would hope that any cprrospndece kept especially as he died so close to their visit.

Did the SW clarify who was scared? Arthur? ET / TH? Or the SW themselves?
V strange that it was not followed up on

@Itsnotover

She had a termination to spite Hughes.

More or less.

Her ex said that she gets pregnant quickly into a relationship as a way of holding onto her partner. (bless hapless menfolk who are powerless to stop a pregnancy right? ) Anyway, it sounds like sharing children with a partner gave her a manipulative tool to use on them - particularly if they try to leave her. And when the kids angle doesn't work any more, she threatens or pretends to self harm - she was reported missing a few years ago and also the documented suicide attempt.

But I also felt that it was income related - either trying to get a bigger house or benefits as she never worked, but TH did, and presumably earning a decent wage as a plasterer /labourer. That's what she wanted to keep, and a baby was a way of either having him stay and provide for them, or a way of getting child maintenance from him if they did split. Also another potential reason for wanting Arthur out of her way - if TH had let Arthur stay with his relatives, he would be expected to provide financially at least. Less money for her.

So when her defence was setting him up to be the main offender, with her supposedly a terrified abused and unwilling accomplice, the baby was of no use to her any more and had she been successful in her defence and found not guilty it would have been another dependent for her with zero assistance financially or otherwise coming in from the child's dad and certainly not his family.

I'm sure there was also spitefulness and the timing of it suggests that it happened after the first hearing where he refused to even look at her - remember she returned upset to her cell and told her cell mate that? So letting him find out during the court proceedings that she terminated was her 'fuck you' to him for that.

She only wants children that are in some way useful to her. When they serve their purpose or fail to, she is happy to dispose of them. Her two older children, Arthur and this pregnancy demonstrate that.

@Bagelsandbrie

Just watched the maternal grandmother on Good Morning Britain. What an incredible woman she is. I hope people are supportive of the wider family. I keep seeing horrible comments on social media saying they should have done more - they did everything they could!

Exactly. The maternal GM had been banned from seeing Arthur from October 2019. She would have had to go to court to gain any contact with him, which a) costs money and b) in the middle of covid pandemic I believe all those types of court proceedings were halted. So she hasn’t said eyes on the boy for nearly 9 months before he died. She won’t have been aware of even a fraction of what was happening.

The sw worker claimed the notes were lost but somehow managed to find them when ordered by the judge

It shouldn’t be possible to lose notes. Surely any notes a SW takes when on a visit, they come back to work, scan them and upload them to the system. Is that really not what happens??

Well clearly the notes weren't really lost as they were able to find them once the judge ordered them to.

Can anyone who followed the trial itself shed any light on what was actually in these notes?

I'm willing to bet they were pretty useless with v littke detail ?

@NalPolishRemover

Well clearly the notes weren't really lost as they were able to find them once the judge ordered them to.

Can anyone who followed the trial itself shed any light on what was actually in these notes?

I'm willing to bet they were pretty useless with v littke detail ?

They didn’t really read them out or discuss them. Not as far as the live trial notes went anyway. Basically just that they had the notes and the judge read them and they (the social workers) said there were no concerns and that was that…!! Totally incompetent.

"She had a termination to spite Hughes."

So babies and children for this woman are just tools not humans. Manipulation, zero remorse for actions, incredible cruelty. Sounds text book psychopath. Has she been analysed for psychopathy? She must have been. She should never be allowed to live among human beings.

Of course they weren’t lost. But the fact they used that as an excuse initially suggests that is something that happens. Surely it shouldn’t be possible? It shouldn’t have been possible for them to use that as an excuse because their procedures should have that covered. Is it really not the case that they upload their notes to a central system?

I agree @MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry! That sw should never have thought it would be acceptable to attend the trial of the littke boy who died whilst under their care & claim the notes were lost. That's just so incredible to me

Also, surely the notes were of relevance to the jury/ trial overal? I can't see how they weren't put to the jury along with all the other evidence in the case.

Is this standard in trials where sw notes are present?

Yes it makes no sense. SE notes would have been submitted as evidence? So both prosecution and defence would have had a chance to see them and prepare their argument?

Whilst i agree. I am unsure why when the grandmother photo those bruises he wasn't taken to hospital?
I wouldn't like to guarantee but I think the threat of arrest wouldn't deter me if i had any suspicion which they did. Surely any commotion might have alerted the police age perhaps started more wheels in motion. I appreciate its lockdown but also he should have been in school they were fobbed off.
It's a lot of what ifs, which makes it all the worse

^Agree with this. People are saying that if the grandmother removed Arthur, he would have been returned to them, not necessarily. If Arthur had felt safe somewhere, it's likely he would have started disclosing the abuse, the GM already had pictures of bruises, it's likely that would have been enough for SS to fast track legal proceedings to have him placed in GMs care.

My kids are young so I obviously don't have grandchildren but I do believe the wider family could have done more. It's all ifs and buts now but I do believe that if they were shouting their concerns from the rooftops and causing a scene at that house then someone would have to have listened at some point. And if they didn't at least that little lad wouldn't have died thinking 'no one loves me' 💔

I have to agree that even with the threat of arrest and covid lockdown making things more difficult they maybe could have done more...I know I would have.
I know my mother would have if she thought one of her grandchildren was being hurt!
Surely if the brothers and dad had turned up on the doorstep and demanded to see Arthur?
Even if police where called it would perhaps have pushed things along?
I don't know..I am just thinking about what I would like to imagine did happen or what I myself would have done..everyone should have done more.I feel for them though I really do.
This case has upset me greatly.
I am pleased there is going to be a review of their sentences..in particular TH needs to be lengthened.

@Tryagainplease

Does anybody know- will they stay in the same prison or will they now be moved?

From what I have read, Tustin will begin her sentence in the same prison she was already on but may well be moved. Those details will obviously be kept secret.
Apparently, she has tried to commit suicide twice and has been described as a ‘very scared and frightened young woman’ because of the bullying she has been subjected to so far. So at least that’s something. I’m very glad she is currently living in fear.

Sentences are also being reviewed as they have been described as too lenient. I think they will both die in prison. Either at the hands of someone else, or themselves.

Glad to hear she is living in fear.

Poor Arthur. Hopefully in some way this will effect some change but there is another horrific case out for verdict right now.
I wonder where we will got with this because in that case sw was also alerted by family. And they were put off by the mum and her gf.

Like others, this case has really got to me. The cruelty, the lack of remorse, the missed opportunities, the complete avoidability of this senseless death... that poor poor boy. It's just utterly incomprehensible.

I keep thinking how "it takes a village", but how that village doesn't really exist any more, because people are so terrified of criticising someone else's poor parenting. The family members and friends that had suspicions or actually witnessed abuse, and could have said something, or spoken up earlier... We as a society must be able to make and receive feedback on parenting. Nobody's perfect all the time but it seems that the inability to say anything to anyone enabled this tragedy. I would much rather take comments on the chin about how I parent, than ever hear of a case like this again.

@charliebear78 i agree...why didnt they make a scene, bring him to hospital, call the police...why didnt the hairdresser do something? i cannot comprehend this complacency. Any one of these actions might have prevented this.

SW were shite, and yes there was covid...But why do we, even after seeing the truth with our own eyes, have to blindly follow these processes and trust that someone will be responsible? they clearly are not responsible and for one reason or another, cannot do their job and all they do is shift blame... I read that the head of family social services quitted weeks before this trial. What will happen as a result of this SW review? i suspect nothing, more procedures, more redtape more reviews of reviews and all that admin just will take away more time from real action...i hope i am wrong.

@Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas

I think the messages passed need to be disclosed by police and sw systems. Not to further blame them but just see what the messages were. Of course much is verbal but we need to see what was documented. One sw didn't even have her notes at the trial

I'm pretty sure they will form part of the serious case review. The criminal trial is not about finding out what statutory agencies failed so there would be no reason for it to form part of the evidence.

Did neighbours not see something was so badly wrong....I know it is way too late and wish we could go back in time and save him...i cannot get the horror of this situation out of my mind...

Is there no way charges can not be brought against affy and tobias? Maybe if everyone one knew that not reporting that level of abuse would incur a charge more would be done!
I know that is unlikely...I suppose at least everyone knows their names now.

@charliebear78

Is there no way charges can not be brought against affy and tobias? Maybe if everyone one knew that not reporting that level of abuse would incur a charge more would be done! I know that is unlikely...I suppose at least everyone knows their names now.

i hope that could happen...their names are out there...and everyone knows they turned a blind eye....

@charliebear78

I have to agree that even with the threat of arrest and covid lockdown making things more difficult they maybe could have done more...I know I would have. I know my mother would have if she thought one of her grandchildren was being hurt! Surely if the brothers and dad had turned up on the doorstep and demanded to see Arthur? Even if police where called it would perhaps have pushed things along? I don't know..I am just thinking about what I would like to imagine did happen or what I myself would have done..everyone should have done more.I feel for them though I really do. This case has upset me greatly. I am pleased there is going to be a review of their sentences..in particular TH needs to be lengthened.

You have to keep in mind that the family had reported. They may have been afraid of the repercussions for Arthur if they reported again or demanded to see him and it didn’t get anywhere.

My childhood neighbour stopped reporting my father to social services because they did nothing, but every time they came she then later heard us being punished for it. My maternal Grandparents were the same.

@NalPolishRemover

I agree *@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry*! That sw should never have thought it would be acceptable to attend the trial of the littke boy who died whilst under their care & claim the notes were lost. That's just so incredible to me

Also, surely the notes were of relevance to the jury/ trial overal? I can't see how they weren't put to the jury along with all the other evidence in the case.

Is this standard in trials where sw notes are present?

Probably the result of years and years at school, university etc where the SW had been able to get away with excuses for everything. Excusing poor behaviour/performance etc is everywhere - nobody is allowed to criticise anyone. This is probably the first time anyone had said to their social worker in her life "I'm telling you to do it, you will do it whether you like it or not"

@PrinzessinCressida

DonkeySkin

That PP was me - thank you very much for those lists of suggestions.

I like the "red alert" under certain circumstances, and the emphasis on children's rights. Ultimately I feel that there has to be a cultural shift where children are seen less as the "exclusive property" of the parent/carer, and their wellbeing seen more as the responsibility of the wider community. Parent/carers need to understand children's rights, and the responsibilities to deliver on those rights that their guardian role assigns to them. We also need to understand on a deeper level than we do currently that a child is not for their parents to do unto them simply as they see fit, especially those parents who struggle with self-control and are likely to cause harm. That might help catch cases before a child actually dies - it sounds like the abuse may start relatively small and then compound itself exponentially as the abuser loses perspective on the enormity of what they are doing. (Not making any excuses here).

I like the idea of increasing powers to conduct more thorough investigations, of allowing for those investigations to be instigated by family members, of allowing for concerned family members to take a more active role in protecting children in extreme circumstances without being seen as "kidnappers", but the questions of resources and potential misuse of these powers crops up for me here. What do you think?

Totally agree with this needed cultural shift. Children are seen as owned by their parents who can 'raise' them any way they want. There is not enough emphasis on childrens rights. British culture as a whole does not value or respect children in the way many others do. We still drag on the ridiulous 'seen and not heard' mantra. A massive step forward would be to criminalise the smacking of children as other countries have. It is assult to smack an adult that pisses you off yet you are allowed to do it to a small child in the name of 'discipline'. It is nonsense and anyone who understands basic child psychology knows it is counterproductive in improving behaviour anyway. Countries that ban smacking show a fundamental level of respect for children that England fails to. It has been proven to radically reduce child abuse and deaths as well. Probably because it makes the line very very clear to feckless parents who cant tell what is 'reasonable punishment' and what is child abuse. It tells them it is all child abuse.

Looking at various threads asking whether to report parents, and how to report, I come to the conclusion that for people who actually want to do something and alert authorities, it is very difficult to understand what a successful roadmap looks like. After seeing what looks like abuse, people would (understandably) call SS and presume they will do the right thing. Perhaps that hairdresser should have called an ambulance? or the grandmother should have brought him directly to hospital after seeing bruises in addition to calling social services? These missed opportunities are one of the reasons this case broke my heart so much...He could have been saved..

Social services do not seem to communicate effectively, if at all, with police, schools, hospitals, and when they do it is adhoc, and information is not shared, it is not in one place. But proving child abuse would often be about putting the pieces of a jigsaw together. Their inefficiencies are failing the vulnerable in this country. Maybe funding cuts. Maybe laziness. Maybe complacency. Who knows.

So how can society actually do something? Even a forum on mumsnet to share experiences and understand when to report to whom to report how to report for best outcomes would help...Does anyone know where people can actually get detailed help on what to do and real experiences being shared?