Kyle Rittenhouse not guilty?

[weegiemum]

How? He shot 2 people dead in front of witnesses, but apparently it was "self defence"?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-kenosha-shooting?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

@VladmirsPoutine

I'm not white so I can't imagine it or put myself in their shoes but all those scores of young white men who'll now take their cue from Rittenhouse will have devastating effects. Imagine it, your skin colour is literally your shield, you won't even be shot because the police will firstly tell you to go home before opening fire. All because you're white. It really must be a trip.

We can only speculate on that, whether it will happen and what people motives are.

Do you think that Rittenhouse should have been convicted in order to try and prevent that, because he's white?

This case was used widely to score points in the media, on both sides and it was wrong to do that, but it was seen as an easy one, and now it's backfired. It's all so sad, because it will only lead to further unrest.

Surely no-one should be found guilty on account of their ethnicity?
Convicting a person as a warning to others is just not acceptable.

@mathanxiety so in order to prevent trigger happy white men the jury should have found him guilty regardless of how they interpreted the evidence? I think that's very dangerous.

Does America have a problem with racism? absolutely but that is something that needs to be addressed as part of societal change. Unfortunately I don't see the risk to black people being shot lowered until gun laws are looked at but there isn't the appetite for that.

Convicting a person as a warning to others is just not acceptable.

Yes that's what I think is scary that people are advocating for that option.

The thing you need to understand about American politics is that there isn't any Left, certainly no Left that Europeans would recognise

And yet you’re the only North American based person I have ever heard say this and I used to work in an U.S. based company. Perhaps that was true, right up until fairly recently, I do see the point you’re making but there are definitely extreme left movements in your country now and they’re having a huge influence on law making and policy.

I’m enjoying this discussion but I have to go out now. Will check back in later

The thing you need to understand about American politics is that there isn't any Left, certainly no Left that Europeans would recognise

Some of the most extreme left ideas seem to originate from US academia though? A lot of the gender and critical race theory stuff.

I see it as the black man wouldnt have even got to a trial as he would have been shot and killed. Racim is a thing and the fact he was white helped him

But surely the point is the black person should be held to the same higher standard as the white man & not be killed not that the white man should have been shot & killed before trial?

And yet you’re the only North American based person I have ever heard say this and I used to work in an U.S. based company. Perhaps that was true, right up until fairly recently, I do see the point you’re making but there are definitely extreme left movements in your country now and they’re having a huge influence on law making and policy.

You might not have heard this from your colleagues because they might not be familiar with European politics, the way we are not very familiar with the American left and right. I have heard this many times, something that even Biden, who is relatively to the left over there would not be considered left wing here. I'm not an expert though.

From what I have seen, I think the right verdict was reached.

That being said, KR is a product of a nasty streak in American society which has been legitimised over the last few years by the Trump administration and which will take further proof that they are in the right from this verdict. I think KR was a complete prat to go to a rally armed in the name of "civil defence" and he'd likely been heavily influenced by others. I do not think he went with entirely pure intentions but that does not excuse his being attacked.

So I can fully understand the anger and frustration from the other side. They are right to be angry.

Long story short, America is fucked up. I say this as someone who has a lot of family over there and actually quite enjoys visiting. But my god does the country have issues.

My understanding is that 'the left' in the US means advocating for minority group rights and green issues rather than economic equality like, say, a traditional socialist would be.

I read years ago that there was a similar difference within the UK Labour Party. There was a London-based group who were more focused on gay rights, women's equality, BAME rights and so forth. And there was a Scottish contingent who didn't care about that so much and were more focused on wealth equality, in a more traditional socialist sense. I'm guessing that latter group are pretty much dead in the water now.

I haven't been able to follow the Ahmaud Arbrey case quite as closely but it looks like the judge has effectively issued a directed verdict of guilty for all three defendants on all charges. If I understand it correctly his decision is based on Georgie law. Attempting to affect a citizen's arrest several days after witnessing an alleged felony is not lawful and therefore the defendants did not have the privilege of self defence.

I think this is the correct finding and I hope they receive substantial sentences.

Of course Biden isn't left wing in the sense that it is used in the UK. I would hardly call him left of centre.

@MaxNormal

The thing you need to understand about American politics is that there isn't any Left, certainly no Left that Europeans would recognise

Some of the most extreme left ideas seem to originate from US academia though? A lot of the gender and critical race theory stuff.

Critical race theory isn't extreme left - it's college level examination of the impact of historical racism on structures today. And gender isn't extreme left thing either - it's a human rights thing.

When a PP said these things were influencing politics they were right - but only in so far as the extreme right is using the names of the concepts and shrieking misinformation across all the media outlets so that fuckwits dictate that CRT will never be allowed in their state's high schools - when it wasn't anyway.

But isn't it then handy that any high school history teacher suggesting that slaves weren't all happy and respected by their owners can be pointed at as a dangerous lefty trying to sneak in CRT? Isn't it handy that the false outrage prevents examination and analysis of real problems?

And if any uppity lefty protests, you just shout "cancel culture!' and 'free speech!' at them until John Q Public stones them for you.

There’s a morally wrong and a legally wrong here. Is it morally wrong for a 17 year old to be prowling around a riot with a lethal weapon? Was it legally wrong, no? Is it morally wrong that a black man would have been arrested and potentially shot at for this? Does that mean this case is legally wrong, no?

FOJN That's correct regarding the Arbrey case, Nate the lawyer does a good breakdown in this video. Correct verdict.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=eEg5oTt6A2I

BelleHathor

Seems we watch a lot of the same lawyers. I think Nate is great, I appreciate his analysis because I can't determine his political leanings which makes me think he's quite objective. I like Uncivil too but he's less animated and harder to engage with. I'm not particularly fond of Rekieta but the live stream legal analysis has been very educational.

This is for people who seem to be saying that Rittenhouse was justified in shooting criminals, despite them having already served their sentences and him not being any kind of licensed executioner; but being instead a white supremacist teenager with deadly delusions of grandeur - Rittenhouse victims

@flashbac

You can agree with a verdict without having to get your violins out for the accused in this case. I feel a lot more sorry for the dead people and their families to be honest.

I agree. And Rittenhouse's pathetic blubbering when the verdict was announced - it looked so false and sickening.

So the GQPs on Mumsnet in force? I guess that explains the state of the Feminism board.

Hilarious, comment of the thread you don't agree with me on trans issues therefore you are QAnon!

Based on the evidence and the local laws at the time of the incident (and this is all that matters, really), the correct verdict was reached. The fact that you may disagree with open carry / gun ownership / Rittenhouse's political leanings is entirely irrelevant in this context. If you want to change the law, go and lobby politicians. The judge and jury of a criminal trial are not the people you should be criticising here. It's really not that hard to understand.

This.

Those of us who live in the UK just don't get the whole 'right to bear arms' jargon, neither do I, personally, see much need for the average person to have guns in the UK. I understand that some have a rifle/shotgun to hunt animals, but as I have never wanted to do that it just passes me by. I also understand that some people belong to gun clubs and just do target shooting. I've never wanted to do that.
I think this entire thing hinges on the fact that in the USA having weapons is thought to be OK, even normal, and what we would think of as unreasonable force is not viewed in the same way.
Finding anyone guilty to prevent others doing the same or to discourage others is just plain wrong; what needs to be looked at is the complete 'right to bear arms' mantra. Until that happens nothing will change. Is that likely to happen do you think?

what needs to be looked at is the complete 'right to bear arms' mantra.

Yes

Until that happens nothing will change.
Is that likely to happen do you think?

No

Critical race theory isn't extreme left - it's college level examination of the impact of historical racism on structures today. And gender isn't extreme left thing either - it's a human rights thing

I don't think that critical race theory in and of itself is extreme, but some of the ideas from certain academics are and I don't think are particularly helpful on a real-world level.

The gender stuff is just like any other religious dogma but unfortunately one is apparently not allowed to be agnostic.

But this is probably a bit of derail.

Clawdy the guy is eighteen years old. I don't agree with the attempt by certain on the right to lionise him or portray him as a hero but this can't have been an easy experience for him.

"tHe rIgHt vêRdĪCt wAs RęAcHeD"

Of course it was! He's a young male white supremacist! The system is designed specifically to support people like him. The odds of him being found guilty are similar to the odds of dancing in a lion enclosure and making it out unscathed. The rights and wrongs of the law aren't up for debate because the very system itself rarely sacrifices one of its own and when it does (e.g. Police officer who killed GF) it's not done easily. Kyle should have been practising his media voice given what a star he's about to become.

@DameFanny I don't particular think the crimes convicted previously by the victims were of upmost importance as KR wouldn't know any of this so couldn't be a motivation. However it's naive to think lawyers are not going to use the fact one was a child molester to their advantage & naive to think everyone would have sympathy with child molester being a victim regardless of the fact the crime was in the past.