Kyle Rittenhouse not guilty?

[weegiemum]

How? He shot 2 people dead in front of witnesses, but apparently it was "self defence"?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-kenosha-shooting?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

@VladmirsPoutine

"tHe rIgHt vêRdĪCt wAs RęAcHeD"

Of course it was! He's a young male white supremacist! The system is designed specifically to support people like him. The odds of him being found guilty are similar to the odds of dancing in a lion enclosure and making it out unscathed. The rights and wrongs of the law aren't up for debate because the very system itself rarely sacrifices one of its own and when it does (e.g. Police officer who killed GF) it's not done easily. Kyle should have been practising his media voice given what a star he's about to become.

Any proof he's a white supremacist? Of course he might be, but there's absolutely nothing that proves he is. He willingly gave his phone to the FBI straightaway and they found nothing on there to indicate he was, everything else seems to have originated on social media which no one can back up with any evidence.

@VladmirsPoutine

Foot soldiers of white supremacy are not punished by the system, they're actively rewarded for their participation within it.

Where's the evidence Rittenhouse is a white supremacist?

I wish they wouldnt call the rioters protestors. They were setting businesses on fire

FOJN We obviously have great taste 😉. Nate is fantastic and always presents a different POV. I have only just found the others so will explore their respective channels. I only subscribed to Rekieta law after youtube kept stopping their livestream the other day on bogus copyright claims.

@TomPinch

There's a cultural difference here. Compare Tony Martin who illegally armed himself and shot people burgling his house. He was convicted of murder, later reduced to manslaughter and his self-defence claim was rejected. The logic being that your can only use reasonable force. I guess that in the US you don't have to restrict yourself in that way.

Not to mention Tony Martin's victim was running away when killed. Clearly not self defence

However it's naive to think lawyers are not going to use the fact one was a child molester to their advantage & naive to think everyone would have sympathy with child molester being a victim regardless of the fact the crime was in the past.

The criminal histories of those shot and injured were not raised during the trial. They were discussed in some media sources but less as a justification for KR shooting them; a previous conviction does not provide the privilege of self defence, and more to counter the assertion that they were good guys there to fight the good fight. Many of the businesses they were damaging and setting fire to were not owned by white people and many insurance companies will not pay for riot damage so those business owners lost their livelihood. How does that further the fight against racism?

The thing is, racism within the police and general public is a huge problem in America, in fact it's positively a pandemic. And as much as it would be good to send the message that 'we won't set double standards for the accused', you can't interfere with fair justice. He was blatantly using self defence - watch the videos. What would you have done? The judge can't say "it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt that he murdered these men - but gonna send him down anyway in a bid to push back against racism". That's not how it works. That's not how it should work.

What's more, the jury will know more than we do, I do a massive eye roll when people say "wHaT wERe tHe jURy THinKiNg". Unless you were a juror then you don't really get a say

@VladmirsPoutine

"tHe rIgHt vêRdĪCt wAs RęAcHeD"

Of course it was! He's a young male white supremacist! The system is designed specifically to support people like him. The odds of him being found guilty are similar to the odds of dancing in a lion enclosure and making it out unscathed. The rights and wrongs of the law aren't up for debate because the very system itself rarely sacrifices one of its own and when it does (e.g. Police officer who killed GF) it's not done easily. Kyle should have been practising his media voice given what a star he's about to become.

Did you get that from the fact he made the okay sign? There's no evidence of him being a white supremacist, even with the FBI going through his phone.

I don't know the ethnic make up of the jury, but I wold be very surprised if the jurors were all white. Blaming them for a wrong and racially motivated verdict is a bit odd.

I don't know the ethnic make up of the jury, but I wold be very surprised if the jurors were all white. Blaming them for a wrong and racially motivated verdict is a bit odd.

I believe the jury were all white as were all the people shot by KR. The first man shot was witnessed (testified to in court) to have used the N word multiple times that night, it cast serious doubt that he was there in good faith to protest against police brutality.

I’ve not seen the full video, but after he had shot the first person how could you not expect people to try and take him down to stop him? The one with the skateboard?

Who at 17 goes to something like that with an automatic weapon.

Why did the judge drop the charges of him carrying a weapon saying it couldn’t be proved?

@FOJN

I don't know the ethnic make up of the jury, but I wold be very surprised if the jurors were all white. Blaming them for a wrong and racially motivated verdict is a bit odd.

I believe the jury were all white as were all the people shot by KR. The first man shot was witnessed (testified to in court) to have used the N word multiple times that night, it cast serious doubt that he was there in good faith to protest against police brutality.

I stand corrected then. It's odd to have an all white jury though.

If I go to a protest in England and carry a glass bottle around and someone else has a glass bottle and threatens to kill me with it so I smash the bottle over their head killing them instantly, proceed to be chased by people who are angry that I just killed someone Infront of them one hits me with a skateboard and tries to get the weapon off of me. It's perfectly okay for me to use the broken bottle to stab him to death and another person but he lives all in the name of self defense? Would I be cleared of murder in the UK?

I’ve not seen the full video, but after he had shot the first person how could you not expect people to try and take him down to stop him? The one with the skateboard?

But can you see how he may have interpreted that he was in danger? As I said upthread the problem was guns.

Who at 17 goes to something like that with an automatic weapon.

I'm sure lots of people of all ages were armed though again because guns

@NekoShiro I think the laws of self defence in the UK are quite different to those in certain US states.

@FOJN I didn't realise that & assumed it was in the trial.

NekoShiro

(not a lawyer) the first thing I would have thought that would have to be proven in England would be the intent to use the bottle as a weapon to kill somebody.

Does the US not have a manslaughter charge? So it’s murder or nothing?
I think in the example @neko gave above that would be manslaughter rather than murder. Manslaughter gets various length sentences, some too short imo.

sashagabadon

From what I can find America has three definitions of murder

First degree: premeditated intention to kill the victim, ie. it was planned in advance.
Second degree: not premeditated, but had intent to kill, ie. defendant was determined to kill the defendant, but that intention arose at the time, not beforehand.
Third degree: no intent to kill, gross negligence which causes death, ie. what is normally called manslaughter in some other jurisdictions.

I think people need to realize that the law in the USA, and indeed from state to state, is not the same as the law in the UK, (and as I understand it the law in Scotland can be different as against the law in England). I think that the law of manslaughter might be different too. Just out of interest if anyone feels so inclined, look up the death of Marvin Gaye, it is interesting in that it shows how an argument descended into the death of one party and also explains how his father was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and received a suspended sentence. Marvin Gaye was shot by his father after a dispute/argument that got totally out of hand.

@NekoShiro

If I go to a protest in England and carry a glass bottle around and someone else has a glass bottle and threatens to kill me with it so I smash the bottle over their head killing them instantly, proceed to be chased by people who are angry that I just killed someone Infront of them one hits me with a skateboard and tries to get the weapon off of me. It's perfectly okay for me to use the broken bottle to stab him to death and another person but he lives all in the name of self defense? Would I be cleared of murder in the UK?

You'd be allowed to defend yourself, so enough to make yourself safe. The problem is a gun only takes one shot. Repeatedly stabbing someone would be a different thing.

Moreover, I saw nothing from the video to suggest that the people who attacked him, saw what happened previously. Only that another man was following him shouting 'he shot someone' as KR was walking up the street looking for the police.

He wasn't aiming his gun at anyone, nor shooting anyone else.

The others were shot when they attacked.

I haven’t see the footage but the jury did and found him not guilty.
He doesn’t sound like a pleasant individual and probably shouldn’t have even been in the area but a lot of the blame for this whole thing should lie on the shoulders of those who promote gun ownership.

I think it is frightening with the big difference between the actual facts (as presented in the trial) and the media’s presentation of this. Many things said by the press and by president Biden was either a lie (crossed country lines with a gun, fired 60 rounds) or not proven (Biden and others claiming white supremacist).

I think it is wrong for the media to lie and do trial by media” before the jury reached a verdict. And I think it is appalling that a sitting president declares himself unhappy and angry with the verdict of the legal system.

If I go to a protest in England and carry a glass bottle around and someone else has a glass bottle and threatens to kill me with it so I smash the bottle over their head killing them instantly, proceed to be chased by people who are angry that I just killed someone Infront of them one hits me with a skateboard and tries to get the weapon off of me. It's perfectly okay for me to use the broken bottle to stab him to death and another person but he lives all in the name of self defense? Would I be cleared of murder in the UK?

The problem is that the presence of guns really changes the equation. If someone goes to take your gun you can argue that you feared the would try to shoot you with it and therefore you're justified in shooting them first. That same argument is not as compelling if the weapon they're trying to take is a glass bottle.

@NekoShiro

If I go to a protest in England and carry a glass bottle around and someone else has a glass bottle and threatens to kill me with it so I smash the bottle over their head killing them instantly, proceed to be chased by people who are angry that I just killed someone Infront of them one hits me with a skateboard and tries to get the weapon off of me. It's perfectly okay for me to use the broken bottle to stab him to death and another person but he lives all in the name of self defense? Would I be cleared of murder in the UK?

Probably not, no.

Is the UK to blame for your imaginary prison sentence for imaginary murder though?

IIRC Tony Martin also left the burglar he shot to bleed to death outside his house without calling the police.