Kyle Rittenhouse not guilty?

[weegiemum]

How? He shot 2 people dead in front of witnesses, but apparently it was "self defence"?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-kenosha-shooting?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

@PerkingFaintly

madisonbridges Sat 20-Nov-21 00:32:38 What's the difference between him and Trump?

madisonbridges Sat 20-Nov-21 01:35:18
I never referred to Trump. You brought Trump into it.

Oops. 🤭 Do you know what I hate? When I'm on my high horse and feeling all righteous and someone knocks me off with facts! 😂 Sorry. You're right and I'm wrong. But I had just read someone talking about Trump and Biden so I wrote with that in mind. But between you and me, I mentioned Trump first. Again, sorry.

[quote FliptheThread]This is a good explainer. www.persuasion.community/p/the-rittenhouse-verdict-shouldnt[/quote]
That's very interesting. It adds even more background info that actually contradicts a lot of preconceptions of his actions.

Unfortunately USA as a whole have a strange relationship with guns and if the tragic mass murder of little children in Sandy Hook and other vile shootings cannot change their mentality towards guns I honestly don’t know what it would take.

People shouldn't be found guilty just because we don't like their ideology or views, only for what they have actually done or not done.

Wow, I never heard of this case until today. I have obviously been living in a cave

Crazy case!

IMO its just a classic american mess.

You have fire arm v. fire arm and its shoot or be shot.
In america they all waltz around with firearms; so an extension to that is if someone tries to take your fire arm I would deduce the same rationale of shoot or potentially be shot also applies.

I am not sure why people put themselves in these situations by carrying firearms but thats america for you. If its not illegal to carry then I think the verdict is correct.

I would argue it should be illegal to carry firearms though and that the starting law is incorrect.

In america they all waltz around with firearms;

This isn't true.

Where this dc lived with his mum has strict carrying laws but where he kept his gun, the state his dad lives has very different laws.

America has a significant variation state to state.

@TomPinch

There's a cultural difference here. Compare Tony Martin who illegally armed himself and shot people burgling his house. He was convicted of murder, later reduced to manslaughter and his self-defence claim was rejected. The logic being that your can only use reasonable force. I guess that in the US you don't have to restrict yourself in that way.

Tony Martin shot the burglars as they were leaving, with their backs to him

I’m in the US right now and the outrage around here is that had Kyle not been a white young man there’s not a chance in hell he’s walking around during the protests with a AR15 in Kenosha.

He would at least have been apprehended and made to prove his right to open carry (which Kyle was not old enough to have) or at worst shot dead by police.

I am amazed, impressed and slightly bewildered at tbe absolute certainty & conviction of posters that tbe defendant was clearly innocent and it was overwhelmingly a case of self defence - given that it took the jury four days of deliberations. (In contrast with the brief deliberation of the Derek Chauvin jury)

I’m an American. The problem is that it’s not illegal to be a macho dumbass with a gun.

He knowingly went into an environment where tensions were high and he brought a weapon. Technically, he had the right to do that. I am in favor of changing laws to make that and other instances of fire arm possession illegal.

The actual shooting did seem an obvious case of self defense.

...some believe he pushed the boundaries as he did to force a mis-trial as he knew he had absolutely no way to bring any kind of real case. This was the right verdict. If he’d been found guilty then that wouldn’t have been the law, that would have been a verdict given because of and in fear of the media, and potential civil unrest/riots. A country with no law, where the media and propaganda decide who’s guilty and what is a crime would be a terrifying place to be.

You may well have media to the left of center in mind with your last comment, but I can assure you the US is controlled by media to the right of center, feeding the less well educated and those with an innate authoritarian streak a steady diet of white male resentment, and above all else, fear, 24/7. Fear of black people in general, fear of women, fear of black women, fear of the left, fear of what Americans believe socialism to be. It is a terrifying place to be. I'm living here.

The case came to trial after a Grand Jury indicted Rittenhouse. That is to say, a jury of ordinary people exactly like the jury which found him not guilty found there was enough cause to try him for all of the charges which were brought.

You may well have media to the left of center in mind with your last comment, but I can assure you the US is controlled by media to the right of center, feeding the less well educated and those with an innate authoritarian streak a steady diet of white male resentment, and above all else, fear, 24/7. Fear of black people in general, fear of women, fear of black women, fear of the left, fear of what Americans believe socialism to be. It is a terrifying place to be. I'm living here

I do not live in the US so cannot claim to know more then you how you experience your every day life but from what I see the direct opposite is true. Fox News and other RW outlets/media are castigated at every turn, you have a left leaning president and administration and even the term “right wing” seems to have been redefined so that even those bang in the centre are labelled RW. Again though I cannot possibly know what every day life is there and do not follow your affairs minutely.

Fox News does its fair share of castigating, I assure you.

Also exhorting violence, disrespect for the rule of law and the outcome of perfectly legal elections, encouragement of fascist, racist, misogynistic militias, and more.

The current incumbent is not recognised as the legally elected president by hundreds of thousands of people thanks to the work of Fox since its inception, and hundreds of outlets way to the right of Fox.

Joe Biden would be squarely right of center in the political culture of any other developed state. He was promoted as the candidate most likely to attract moderate-leaning Democrats and lukewarm Republicans. Maybe that gives you some idea of where Fox News lies.

Fox News does its fair share of castigating, I assure you

I do not disagree. I’m not attempting to defend them.

The current incumbent is not recognised as the legally elected president by hundreds of thousands of people thanks to the work of Fox since its inception, and hundreds of outlets way to the right of Fox.

Neither was Trump. Weren’t there actually rallies where thousands took to the street to protest his election? And didn’t Hilary Clinton call him an “illegitimate president” and suggest he stole the election?

One thing I do know though, is that sitting presidents shouldn’t be making statements about “wrong verdicts” and by doing so putting targets squarely on the backs of the jury and anyone else involved in this outcome. I saw the defence lawyer in an interview yesterday say that after the verdict he stopped answering his phone after the third death threat.

@lawnotorder

Let's see a young black man try the same thing

I don't really understand this point. Yes I believe it's unlikely that a black man would have been acquitted because of racism. But I'm not sure how finding Kyle guilty helps racism.

I see it as the black man wouldnt have even got to a trial as he would have been shot and killed. Racim is a thing and the fact he was white helped him

Neither was Trump. Weren’t there actually rallies where thousands took to the street to protest his election? And didn’t Hilary Clinton call him an “illegitimate president” and suggest he stole the election?

There were rallies to protest his misogyny (women wearing pink hats) and other marches. There wasn't an invasion of the US Capitol, the murder of a guard, the invasion of individual lawmakers' offices, calls for the death of political leaders.

There was evidence of manipulation of social media by parties such as Robert and Rebekah Mercer which made it clear that the victory was based on a campaign of fear mongering and dog whistling (as well as a long drawn out investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election).

Clinton still called him 'president'. That's not an acknowledgement Trump's supporters ever proffered to Biden. There is a continued debate on whether the Electoral College distorts elections, whether it makes some votes worth more than one vote/ undermines the principle of one man one vote.

I'm not sure how finding Kyle guilty helps racism.

It encourages trigger-happy white people with a similar authoritarian bent to take guns to rallies, marches, and protests in order to 'maintain order', 'protect property', etc., incite violence, shoot people they hate, and claim self defense.

It also encourages the belief that the law is on the side of angry white men.

After watching the video footage, I agree with the verdict. It was self defense. His weapon is legal. Witnesses testified it was self defense.

@weegiemum

I've watched the footage and didn't think it was very cut and dried. But I think we all see things differently and that's why it took the jury 3 days.

The judge was a joke though.

I don't want things to kick off. I honestly didn't think my view was that controversial. Clearly I'm not very good at reading the room.

3 days is actually a fairly short time OP for a jury decision in a murder trial

If someone cornered you with a gun, and you also had a gun, what would you do?

Right decision and a clear case of self defence

as well as a long drawn out investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election).

Proved to be largely unfounded though wasn’t it? With some of those involved being charged with lying to the FBI and possible links found to the Clinton Campaign.

Anyway, look, I’m no Trump fan, I felt sick when I woke up to the news of his election and it didn’t pass for days. I just see corruption and political rebranding on both sides and from what I see your most respected media has a ever more left leaning bias these days and isn’t being particularly responsible about pushing it. Desperation to ensure Trump or his ilk never gets in again probably drives it but from an uninvolved observers point of view it’s hard to see who the good or the bad are now, as all seem to be using similar tactics and the constant pushing of the left “Good!” and the right “Evil!” with little balance makes for what feels and looks like a tinderbox waiting to blow.

You can agree with a verdict without having to get your violins out for the accused in this case. I feel a lot more sorry for the dead people and their families to be honest.

The thing you need to understand about American politics is that there isn't any Left, certainly no Left that Europeans would recognise.

There's Right and Somewhat Left of Right But Still Right, @LondonWolf.

I'm not white so I can't imagine it or put myself in their shoes but all those scores of young white men who'll now take their cue from Rittenhouse will have devastating effects. Imagine it, your skin colour is literally your shield, you won't even be shot because the police will firstly tell you to go home before opening fire. All because you're white. It really must be a trip.

@flashbac

You can agree with a verdict without having to get your violins out for the accused in this case. I feel a lot more sorry for the dead people and their families to be honest.

I feel sympathy for his victims and their families. And also for Rittenhouse.