Page 11 | I said it would happen, it happened, now what?

Violinist64 · 24/10/2021 01:44

@AccidentallyOnPurpose this is exactly what I was saying. I don’t think anyone can blame this poor child. It is to his credit that he has shown such patience for so long. Hopefully, the girl will now think twice.

RockinHorseShit · 24/10/2021 03:29

I've been where you are when DD was small & as much as I totally understand you not wanting to move him to another school, we did the same thing for years as DD was determined she was there first & I felt fighting her corner & winning was a better lesson than running away.

I was completely wrong & I regret every day that we didn't get her out of our small problem primary school at the first sign of trouble.

The school are failing in their "duty of care" to your son, just as they did with my DD. This can have a huge impact on his MH, as it did my DD & we are reaping the rewards of that now with a very angry teenager who we are struggling to get into counselling.

You've had great advice about as to the protocol you need to follow with the school etc. Get all of your evidence together to prove you've been trying to get their attention & help for years & their lack of action has led to your DSs behaviour & anger he feels at the injustice. When referring to the girl who is bullying your DS, don't call her a bully, but she's "exhibiting bullying behaviour towards your DS" I found language was everything when demanding to be heard & DO demand. They are seriously letting your DS down

I'd also add, kick up the biggest stink going & use this situation to get your DS into another school. I even emailed our director of education, (though there was more going on too) & that plus making sure every other body knew exactly how the school were failing, ended up with a place being made for DD at our best & impossible to get into local school. The 6 months she was there restored her faith in teachers & other kids. I regret everyday that I didn't do it years earlier

Good luck & try & get him some support & not via the school as we found that geared to covering the schools arses too. DD even reported they were trying to say we're were drinkers & all sorts. I'm tee total & DH only drinks if he goes out on a weekend 😏. If you have a Well-being Center near to you, they also cover counselling for kids 4 + upwards too. My DD wouldn't trust counsellors after that & I regret not pushing her as she's suffering for not doing it now

Good luck

RockinHorseShit · 24/10/2021 03:36

Oh & as much as I don't advocate violence, good on your lad fir finally giving the girl exactly what she deserved. DD would never break school rules, so never lashed back in school p, but her bully made the mistake of starting on her at a party & DD snapped back hard. That particular girl never did it again, though sadly she wasn't the ring leader, so it carried on

Unfortunately the way the school has handled it means the girl feels like she's won, despite DS hitting back, so it's unlikely to have had much effect

BBOA · 24/10/2021 05:36

Sounds awful and upsetting . Feel really sorry for your son. There will be other kids in his class that have witnessed this. They will notice what’s going on. Why aren’t the school asking other class mates what is going on? In a small school everyone sees and knows everything. Are you friends with parents of kids in the same class that can ask their kids to speak to the teacher.
I think it’s so sad that some schools don’t deal well with bullying and leave a trail of traumatised kids because of it. You’d think it would be better in a small school but,with a small pool of kids ( or unpleasant teachers) it’s often worse . Sorry you are dealing with this. I’d set yourself a timescale for improvement and seriously consider moving your DS.

Oblomov21 · 24/10/2021 05:48

Put it all in writing, in an email, so there's a paper trail.
You need to be harder. Why are you asking about 'grief counselling'. Stop using wishy washy terms and start using the correct terms previous posters have suggested:

Complaint
Bullying
Failed in their duty of care......

Email the Headmaster and chair of governors. Asap. Your email doesn't need to be perfect, you can add stuff later, but you must get it sent ASAP, preferably today, to get it registered as being received today. Then all the procedures can at least start.

Oblomov21 · 24/10/2021 05:54

The school have already shown their true colours. Do you honestly believe that by submitting a complaint they are going to have a complete change of heart, policy, ethos, OP?

Nope. Us neither.
I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying you need to be mentally prepared.

NiceTwin · 24/10/2021 05:54

With any luck, the girl will back off now ge has clouted her.

My dd has been bullied by various Asian boys throughout her high school years.
The bunch that have targeted her this were warned by her that if they carried on, they would be on the floor and their teeth would be lying next to them.
They carried on, she thumped one of them. No teachers saw it, the boy didn't report it (I did) but they now leave her alone.

Beeinalily · 24/10/2021 07:33

Yes, as a few Pps have said, it might actually stop her. My son was bullied by a boy who would follow him around, get in his space, say vile things to him. I'm the end he turned around and punched the other kid on the nose. He got a detention - but it never happened again.

BenFred1 · 24/10/2021 07:40

I would do all of the above including pulling in the Chair of Governors and someone from the local authority. I would consider moving schools. There is high school to consider too. I wonder if her parents are fully aware.

Mamaof2males · 24/10/2021 07:58

@opal8

OK.
Start by asking for the schools anti bullying policy, ask for the details of the anti bullying lead at County Hall and ask for a meeting with the CT and HT.
Letter to Chair of Governors.
Make sure you document all the times you have had to talk to them about child x
Make sure you point out how they have been observed fabricating lies about your child.
But honestly? Move him.
Small schools like this can be an utter nightmare for bullying and it's rarely dealt with appropriately
The cynic in me would ask of the parent of child x is a teacher, a governor head of pta or a friend of staff members...?

This! 🙌🏻🙏🏻 - take the complaint as far as you can, do not let this pass. What has her mother to say about it too?

amccabe15 · 24/10/2021 08:14

Definitely play the Ofsted card - all schools know they will swoop without notice! Demand that meeting with the head, demand a written apology, demand a verbal apology from the head to your son (in your presence) for not taking action sooner. Demand a full explanation why the perpetrator has been allowed to do this for so long. Make it clear that if this doesn’t happen you will have no alternative than to report this to Ofsted as a safeguarding issue, to protect other children at his school.

jamdonut · 24/10/2021 08:28

Sounds a nightmare…these things can be horrible to unpick , as school staff. But it doesn’t sound like they take each child involved aside and take ‘statements’ from them , which is what we do at our school. (It’s been known to be almost an entire class asked about what they actually saw and heard, before now!😏) sometimes the only way is to get all views of what was seen, iswithout the interference of others in the conversation.

I think you need to make an official, in writing complaint for this to be taken seriously. Mention ‘Ofsted’ and ‘abuse’ and other key words and they will have to take it seriously.

Sadly, there are kids who are sly enough to get other kids in trouble ; they enjoy the spectacle that unfolds.😔

TheSunIsStillShining · 24/10/2021 08:31

Our son in primary yr 4 and 5 had same issue. Moved him as soon as we could, which was start of yr6. Best decision ever!!!!

I do think it is very important to let kids handle their issues between themselves and only step in when there is gross injustice or real bullying involved. I hate the mentality I saw in the UK schools that the victims should do more to not be victims. No. They should not be the ones going out of their way to appease the bully. They should stand up for themselves. But small kids can't always do it. And that's where the school policies are failing our kids. They teach them that if you get bullied you are the problem and it is happening because you need to go to anger management classes and/or counselling. You need to change. No. It does a lot of damage to teach kids to shy away from confrontation. It is a normal part of life. The key is to know how to handle confrontations and give as many munition to them as possible. There are myriads of ways to handle situations. But in the UK the only way to handle is to change your (the victim) behaviour. We had huge talks with the sec school pastoral team lead* on this and he said he sees my point, but "british are just not like that" :)

And yes, another point is to see the fine line between bullying and "let them sort it out". It is not clear cut in 99% of the cases.

*All boys sec school and after all the bullying incidents in primary we told our kid to stand up for himself. If he is in the right we will back him. If he is in the wrong then we will have a huge talk (and decide what to do). As normal with tween boys, some hormonal changes starting - they had to get their order within the "wolfpack" sorted. And it did involve me going into the pastoral office loads of times. For stuff like: he called an another kid idiot. I knew the story and asked the pastoral head if he knew why? HE didn't and insisted that whatever the reason this should be never said to another person. Fair enough in principle. The truth was that the other kid has been calling my son an idiot for some time, but in a very low voice. My son lost it and shouted it back.
So the lesson learnt -as phrased by our then 13yr old- anything is okay as long as you can get away with it. It took months to untangle this very disgusting and demoralizing sentence/attitude.
And this is why I hate how this is treated here.

Claraoclara · 24/10/2021 08:53

I would take this to the top. The school sounds like they’ve completely neglected your sons welfare. Contact the chair of governors and Ofsted if necessary. The child sounds like they might need support too? There is probably something about the child that they can’t tell you but they might have their hands tied because of social services. The child’s behaviour is really troubling and is probably linked to something that is happening to them . Ignoring your emails is incompetence on their part. I hate this anger issues label. He sounds like an amazing boy to have put up with it for so long.

Bumpinthenight · 24/10/2021 09:05

Don't 'play the Ofsted card'. Or send cockroaches into school (FFS!).

You need to follow the proper channels. Currently, it is your word against theirs as nothing has been backed up with written evidence so you have no proof that you've said anything to school.

You've written to the head. Follow up on Monday that you phoned on Friday morning and have emailed and there has still been no response (not even an 'I'm busy, I'll phone you on Monday' response). Then go through their bullying procedure (which should be on their website) which should include escalating to chair of governors and then the LA/ board if a MAT.

Once you have a paper trail, then you can report to Ofsted for them not giving a crap.

I'm so sorry for what your son is going through and I absolutely don't blame him for snapping. Do not agree to anger management lessons; he has a bullying issue not an anger issue.

BlueMongoose · 24/10/2021 09:12

I'd seriously look at changing schools. I know of two cases where that proved to be a happy solution to far less serious problems.

Meantime, I'd give the new HM a chance to hear all the facts, and keep it as calm and objective as you possibly can. This is difficult, but it works better than being very emotional as people get distracted by emotions and miss facts. By the same token, I'd stick to plain facts about the other child's behavior, and wouldn't speculate on the causes or use pejorative words for them- this makes you come over as fairer. If I knew which teachers intervened before to clear my son, I'd ask, maybe in advance, if the HM might consider talking to them about what they saw- their reports should carry weight as they would be regarded by most HMs as impartial witnesses.

thebetterlife21 · 24/10/2021 09:36

I am pretty disgusted by the people here justifying violence. Where do you think that ends, everyone thumping each other every time they think they are in the right?

The "bully" should not be being unkind and annoying another child on purpose all the time. The dc here should NOT have kicked her.

Both dc need help.

The school needs to think about how to manage bullying.

We also don't have the full story here.

The boy didn't see the girl at all last year (so the bullying hasn't been consistently for 3 years and teachers had stepped in when it happened in the first year) and the teachers think that he developed anger management issues stemming from something which happened last year. This isn't a straightforward situation.

BlueMongoose · 24/10/2021 09:45

@amccabe15

Definitely play the Ofsted card - all schools know they will swoop without notice! Demand that meeting with the head, demand a written apology, demand a verbal apology from the head to your son (in your presence) for not taking action sooner. Demand a full explanation why the perpetrator has been allowed to do this for so long. Make it clear that if this doesn’t happen you will have no alternative than to report this to Ofsted as a safeguarding issue, to protect other children at his school.

I wouldn't deal with the head by 'demanding' anything, unless I planned to find my kid another school whatever happened. I'd present them with the problem as one that was theirs to solve, because as a parent I can't solve it alone.

Demanding an apology like that from the head is about the daftest thing you could do at this stage. They won't apologise before they have finished investigating, it would change nothing for the good if you got it, and you'll look a fool for asking and being refused. And as I understand it, the OP wants to keep their kid in this school. So even though it feels unfair, you sometimes have to grit your teeth and keep your cool to get what you want. The OP needs to get the HM on side, not alienate them.

If you want to report stuff to ofsted or complain to anyone in authority about anything later, you will always do better by staying calm, sticking to facts, and being very careful never to overstate, make unreasonable demands, or make a factual mistake. And by putting/getting things in writing. By all means be firm, don't crawl, and don't underestimate the effects it's had on you/your kid, but if you make one mistaken assertion, or use aggressive language, your case will be seriously weakened in the eyes of anyone looking at a complaint. This can feel, and indeed is, very unfair when all the aggression is coming at you/your kid as the victim, but we have to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be. And do whatever we can to get the outcome we really want.

Clov3119 · 24/10/2021 10:50

[quote Blahblahnobodylistens]@Hen2018 because my ds has been going to thus school since nursery and all of his friends are there, this other student only started 3 years ago and immediately started this shit. I don't see why my ds should be made to move away from all of his friends, and everyone he's known throughout his whole life, because of one students shitty behaviour[/quote]
Hmm... I have a feeling I know why she was moved there 3 years ago. I tell you what will stop it. If he literally acts like she doesn't exist. Does not ask her to leave him alone. Does not look at her. Just looks through her. Like "suit yourself" and walk away. She will get bored very quickly. I think this girl likes the attention even if it is to ask to leave alone. This sounds extremely irritating. But Mark my words... this girl will be bullied when she goes seniors. Other kids have enough of it by then and will just all turn on her.

Clov3119 · 24/10/2021 11:03

@Blahblahnobodylistens

I wasn't really sure where to put this as it could cover a few areas but I'm need to ask for advice regarding 10 year old and school. This is quite lengthy as there is a bit of history which is important.

But of backstory...ds goes to a small school, each class is 2 years in one with approx 28 students per class. He is in year 5 and has had many issues with another student who is now in year 6. Last year was not an issue because they were in separate classes and all the restrictions meant they rarely crossed paths however, the year before was absolutely horrendous with tears most days due to behaviour from the other child. This behaviour included making up stories that ds had hit them and hurt them. ds was taken into the HM office on more than one occasion due to this but ds always maintained his innocence and became very upset each time. This came to an abrupt end when this child threw themselves on the floor screaming as they lined up in the playground at the start of the day, stating ds had punched her in the face. Thankfully several parents and another teacher saw what had happened and as ds was being marched to the HM office they came to his rescue and told them it was fabricated. They would also goad ds, whispering awful things to him about how he was ugly, fat (definitely not as he competes in a sport that he is regional champ in), everyone hates him etc etc and following him despite ds begging them to leave him alone and trying to walk away. That year I lost countless hours talking to his teachers, begging them to monitor the situation before he loses his shit and reacts in the way I guess she's hoping he will so he gets into serious trouble. Just to add, all of these things were always done away from the teachers, out of earshot and slyly. When this school year started, I requested a meeting with his new teacher so she was aware of the history, only because ds had huge anxiety about being back in a class with this child. She never replied, has ignored me via several channels of communication 😒

2 weeks ago this child started all old behaviours again and followed ds around the playground venting awful stuff. Ds did exactly what we have been instilling in him to do, ask her to leave him alone and go tell a teacher what is happening. He did this...and was told to stop telling tales. The 2 children ended up having a big row in the playground because they just would not leave him alone, they had a scuffle and ds got into trouble. I was so pissed off that ds had done everything we had been reinforcing him was the right thing to do yet was the one to get into trouble because he was effectively failed. I went in the next morning and had a very long chat with the TA (as the teacher wasn't available) and made it very clear that his treatment was actually very unfair when he was the one that was being goaded and was basically told to fuck off when he tried to put an end to it.

Anyway, onto yesterday...I get hauled into the classroom at the end of the day. Ds has kicked another student very hard. I was absolutely mortified and upset, I have never ever known ds to hurt anyone, but wanted to know if it was the student he's had all of the issues with..turns out it was. I asked how it had come to him losing his shit that badly and was told she wasn't sure. So I asked ds to explain and, sure enough, it was the usual story. The teacher had left the room, student makes a beeline for ds and starts mocking him because he was asking another student if she was OK as she looked upset (that's a whole other story) and apparently boys can't talk to girls as it makes them pathetic. Ds asked her to leave him alone and walked away at which point the student follows him around the class mocking him. He says that he begged the student to leave him alone and kept walking around the room to get away but they carried on and he lost his shit and kicked them.

Now I don't condone what my ds has done, far from it, but I'm pretty pissed off that it has gone this far when I have repeatedly spoken to the school warning them that there is only so much ds will take before he loses his temper unless they act on our conversations and stop the other students behaviour. And now they have labelled ds as a child who requires anger management! I actually think he's managed his anger pretty bloody well over the past 3 years despite the relentless lies and sly mocking.

So my question is, how do I move forward with this? I warned the teachers, even as recently as 2 weeks ago, that he is being pushed beyond my limits of anger coaching. I warned them that there is only so much he can take and that teachers have so far been unhelpful when he has asked for help and told them what is happening. He's done everything right so far but now he's undone all of that by kicking this student. How do I deal with this without making it look like I'm one of those parents that doesn't believe her PFB can do any wrong?? He has done wrong, he is very remorseful and even the teacher said he didn't stop apologising all day, but surely some blame should be taken off his shoulders? Yesterday they were angling all of the blame on ds and wanting to make referrals for anger management and counselling, blaming his reaction on the fact he's been upset as his grampy, my dad, died of covid in February. This has been going on since way before my dad passed and I actually resent them making attempts to blame that, rather than admitting they fucked up and misread the message I was trying to convey. But that's just me projecting I guess 😕

Tbh, though, I would discuss with him how he feels about changing schools. Let him decide. This school sounds shite with this. All they have to do is change his class. Sorted. They sound like they are enjoying watching the bullying occur. Then join in and bully themselves. A school did this with my sister when she was younger and now as an adult it has effected her self-esteem so much. I would also advise your son to calmly explain to the teacher what is occurring any time they try to punish him for his, frankly inevitable, frustration at this other child.

Baggins15 · 24/10/2021 12:03

I had pretty much the excat same experience as yours apart from my daughter was 14 and it spilled over from school to constant messages on social media ,every time we blocked them and showed school the girl would get a small detention and then she would make a new account , my daughter was so depressed that I was thinking of taking her out of school , I had meeting after meeting after meeting to be told they was watching and the girl couldn't get near my daughter , at the end of one meeting we came out and guess who was outside the door the girl !! ..the messages got so bad I felt physically sick but school didn't want to do anything but give detentions, even told my daughter if she couldn't stay away from the girl who was bullying her and following her around she would be given detentions etc aswell ( even though my daughter never left her block and the other child would go into my daughters block and look for her , in the end I taught my daughter how to defend herself (boxing ) she was told to never throw the first hot but we knew it was only time before the girl.got physical through the messages she was sending .even saying she was coming to our house etc (this all started because my daughter was laughing with mutual friend and she didn't like it )
In the end it did get physical , luckily my daughter was prepared and wasn't hurt but the school didn't like she hit back so I took it in my own hands and rang everyone I could think of and found the mother , we arranged a meeting in a coffee shop with the message being if this carrys on then the tables will turn (as it was heartbreaking seeing my daughter so depressed ) after that was the 6 weeks holidays and after that the girl couldn't be nicer to her ,but it took me taking matters into my own hands to sort it out , the girl continued to bully other girls that she got thrown out of school not long after, for some really bad things .. my only advice is go to the parents and don't back down .thinking of your ds x

dapsnotplimsolls · 24/10/2021 12:14

I assume the other pupils witnessed the lead up to the kick ie her following him around the room and hassling him? I wouldn't expect much response to your email for a week or so, given that it's half term in most places.

Shell4429 · 24/10/2021 12:30

When my children were bullied at school (I know that not many people will agree with doing this but it worked) I approached the bullies myself and told them in no uncertain terms that if they persisted there would be consequences. On one occasion I didn’t even have to do that, the bully saw us in the car, my son pointed him out, and by the time I got out of the car he had run off but the bullying stopped. This particular boy had been moved away from a previous school where he himself had been bullied which makes me wonder if that was at the root of it. Perhaps this girl was bullied at her last school. Although it’s not an excuse, it might be a reason.

Plumbuddle · 24/10/2021 13:38

@Shell4429

When my children were bullied at school (I know that not many people will agree with doing this but it worked) I approached the bullies myself and told them in no uncertain terms that if they persisted there would be consequences. On one occasion I didn’t even have to do that, the bully saw us in the car, my son pointed him out, and by the time I got out of the car he had run off but the bullying stopped. This particular boy had been moved away from a previous school where he himself had been bullied which makes me wonder if that was at the root of it. Perhaps this girl was bullied at her last school. Although it’s not an excuse, it might be a reason.

I agree this works but it is really dangerous to do these days. I first learned of adult intervention when a woman from the US explained to my mother and me she had lain in wait for the bullies on their way home and then terrified them out of their wits. My mother was appalled (as an ex school teacher all through her life) but I was impressed at the woman's guts. My DH had to do it (not nastily) when shadowing my 12yo son home on the bus as the school bully bullied him there. My DH sat incognito a few rows behind. When the bully started he rose up majestically and told him off in full public. But then he and my son got off the bus quickly so it went no further, whilst I phoned and emailed the school from the other end to say exactly what had happened, so that my DH did not then get accused of child abuse by the other kids' parents. It worked that once, but that particular bully carried on I'm afraid. You also have to do it in this very careful way these days otherwise the other parents are perfectly entitled to report YOU to police. My advice to OP is still follow the school governor poster's list, don't use counselling from school, mark each and every occasion it occurs by both attending (if you can) and emailing on each and every time it happens, and meantime be discussing with your son whether he thinks he wants to stay or not. If he wants to stay, then advise him to call out each and every occasion by going direct to the head teacher. Not a class teacher or play supervisor. The head teacher. Even if he has to sit out of class and wait for him to come out of his room. Why should he not go right to the top, if lower management won't help him? Same as you would with an employer. I still think you are better off with your son leaving but if he really wants to stay he needs a power strategy.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 24/10/2021 14:01

@Shell4429

When my children were bullied at school (I know that not many people will agree with doing this but it worked) I approached the bullies myself and told them in no uncertain terms that if they persisted there would be consequences. On one occasion I didn’t even have to do that, the bully saw us in the car, my son pointed him out, and by the time I got out of the car he had run off but the bullying stopped. This particular boy had been moved away from a previous school where he himself had been bullied which makes me wonder if that was at the root of it. Perhaps this girl was bullied at her last school. Although it’s not an excuse, it might be a reason.

It's not a recommended solution because things can quickly escalate. The parents getting involved and reacting badly if they're that way inclined, a visit from the police or being banned from the school ground if a complaint is made and things go to far, a bad reaction from the child themselves if they're bold enough , retaliation to your child when you're not around etc. It's not worth it on the off chance that it'll scare the bully straight.