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When does the OW stop being the OW?

332 replies

Worldwide2 · 12/10/2021 13:16

Hello all

Due to a couple of other threads regarding affairs with married men and men creating second family's with the 'ow'. It has got me thinking when does everything get forgotten and forgiven? As in when does the OW stop being referred to as the OW and is accepted as exes wife/girlfriend. Is it normal to get over such betrayal and move on without feeling bitter or is hard to not harbour a feeling of resentment for a long time towards them?
When you hear someone being referred to as the OW after a number of years you kind of thing ok let go now it's time to move on but is it so simple actually?
I'm not condoning affairs at all but I do know of people who were desperately unhappy with their then spouse had affairs and are now very happy with the other person. Doesn't everyone deserve to be happy or not when it comes off the back of someone else's happiness? I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this without it turning into a bun fight of course.

Also this isn't just affairs between married men and women it goes for married women too.

OP posts:
TwinsandTrifle · 13/10/2021 15:21

Even if the husband is full on abusive it’s still not a great idea to jump into another relationship so fast- particularly with kids.

Oh I completely agree. What I was trying to demonstrate was that for the husband to forever harbour some kind of bitterness and project "ohhhhhhhhhh she ran off with OM" is a victim act. Masquerading the overriding reason the whole marriage failed, with the convenient technicality of how it ended. I think this is the case for a large number of affairs.

It's sort of like being confronted by a bunch of bullies. Whacking one in the face, then the bully crying "assault" like a victim. Well, yes technically you did get a bop on the nose. After the ten of you set upon me. It wasn't ok that I gave you a whack. But somewhat misleading to portray yourself as a victim and me as the "assaulter" when you know exactly what you contributed to the end result. But "technically" I assaulted you and that's what you'll tell everyone, with no accountability for yourself. Hmm

The assault is not justified. But neither is the eternal victim act instead of more honest accountability. The marriage is usually over well before an affair happens. There's a lot of burying heads in the sand and maintaining appearances for the children.

My first husband didn't cheat. But I wouldn't have been surprised if he had. We were too young, wouldn't be told, got married anyway, and just weren't suited. Our marriage failed pretty quickly but we remained married for another year pretty much out of embarrassment that we'd have to tell everyone they were right and we'd ballsed it up so quickly. And we had a really elaborate wedding, so felt foolish about that. If he'd met someone within that year, she would have been technically the "OW" but I wouldn't have made a point of being the poor abandoned wife, because I knew perfectly well it was over far before that, regardless of the exit.

TractorAndHeadphones · 13/10/2021 16:04

@ShagMeRiggins I agree. Cheating is more like lying than murder. Something the vast majority of people would be capable of in the right circumstances.

It’s an odious thing to do, but the reasons and situations are numerous and complex.

lottiegarbanzo · 13/10/2021 16:16

Just a maths point but this sentence doesn't make sense: Approximately 60% of people are unfaithful in unmarried (40%) or married (20%) relationships.

40% of people in ummarried partnerships, plus 20% of people in marriages, averages at a figure between 20% and 40% (depending on the proportion of the total number of partnered people who are married). e.g. if half of the partnered people are married, then that's half of 40 + half of 20 = 30% of partnered people being unfaithful.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

lottiegarbanzo · 13/10/2021 16:33

I do disagree that anyone can or would cheat. I do see a tendency to selfishness, ruthlessness, secrecy and deceit as long-term personality traits, as I've argued upthread (from about 9.20 this morning, over a number of posts).

Whereas: Other personalities and moral frameworks result in people who will not cheat, for example who regard cheating as abhorrent, degrading and destructive, as a prior position. Some people are potential cheats, some people are not.

I also think that people who are more socially and emotionally intelligent, competent and mature, people with better self-knowledge, insight and openness, are more likely to name the problems in their relationships, discuss and attempt to deal with them, then recognise when they are insurmountable and end the relationship.

A lot of cheats (especially the serial sort) are immature 'grass is always greener' fantasist types, who lack self-knowledge, insight and the ability to conduct adult relationships successfully.

Others have a lot of awareness, social and emotional ability but are just very selfish, ruthless people, who give far higher importance to their own wants than to other people's wants or needs.

There is almost never an excuse for not ending your relationship first. Cheating is, usually, a choice.

PeachesPumpkin · 13/10/2021 16:37

You can forgive but not forget. I think the OW or OM will always be OW/OM.

Worldwide2 · 13/10/2021 16:44

@lottiegarbanzo yes I can see you keep repeating the phrases 'ruthless, deceit, selfishness' ect to describe someone who has cheated and that must be who they are through and through. I dont agree at all. I don't believe all people that cheat are how you describe. Some are yes but not all. I think what I have understood from this thread some people are as you describe ruthless and probably always will be but some are not. Just unhappy people who made a mistake. I don't think they deserve to be tarred for the rest of their life. I don't deem them to be untrustworthy forever either. So I think we will have to agree to disagree there.

OP posts:
Worldwide2 · 13/10/2021 16:49

@tractorandheadphones I agree %100

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 13/10/2021 16:55

Many are just weak, inadequate people, yes.

Worldwide2 · 13/10/2021 16:58

@lottiegarbanzo no I think they are just normal people.

OP posts:
Cantthinkofaname21 · 13/10/2021 17:07

42 years and my Mil still refers to the person married to her ex husband for 42 years as the OW.

Sad really as she spent 42 years being bitter women and has never moved on :( My children are uncomfortable to mention Grandad or say they have been to Grandad house for fear of MIL kicking off.
Yes it shouldn’t have happened, yes FIL should have left his unhappy marriage without falling for another person and that being the reason.

Musmerian · 13/10/2021 17:14

@TrufflesAndToast - typical Mumsnet response. Given that my Ex, my children and my family are ok with it and I’m generally considered a pretty reasonable human being, I’m not really interested in your views. I only posted because the OP is right to question the singular narrative peddled by most on MN. I’ve come across very little judgment and negativity from people who know what happened. But that’s the real world and it the MN bubble where there is no nuance.

TractorAndHeadphones · 13/10/2021 17:20

@lottiegarbanzo

I do disagree that anyone can or would cheat. I do see a tendency to selfishness, ruthlessness, secrecy and deceit as long-term personality traits, as I've argued upthread (from about 9.20 this morning, over a number of posts).

Whereas: Other personalities and moral frameworks result in people who will not cheat, for example who regard cheating as abhorrent, degrading and destructive, as a prior position. Some people are potential cheats, some people are not.

I also think that people who are more socially and emotionally intelligent, competent and mature, people with better self-knowledge, insight and openness, are more likely to name the problems in their relationships, discuss and attempt to deal with them, then recognise when they are insurmountable and end the relationship.

A lot of cheats (especially the serial sort) are immature 'grass is always greener' fantasist types, who lack self-knowledge, insight and the ability to conduct adult relationships successfully.

Others have a lot of awareness, social and emotional ability but are just very selfish, ruthless people, who give far higher importance to their own wants than to other people's wants or needs.

There is almost never an excuse for not ending your relationship first. Cheating is, usually, a choice.

It is a choice. But good people do bad things. Unlike theft , or arson. Cheating isn’t straightforward. There are many factors than can prevent one from leaving. Can you really say that breaking up a stable family is always better than cheating if the other party never finds out? I’m not condoning it but by making things simple, or labelling people as ‘types’ were basically masking the complexity. Or perhaps comforting ourselves that ‘it would never happen to me/ I wouldn’t do it as me/my partner isn’t that sort of person. I wouldn’t trust anybody to not cheat. And it’s not about watching them or being controlling either if they really want to I can’t stop it.
ShagMeRiggins · 13/10/2021 17:24

@lottiegarbanzo

Just a maths point but this sentence doesn't make sense: Approximately 60% of people are unfaithful in unmarried (40%) or married (20%) relationships.

40% of people in ummarried partnerships, plus 20% of people in marriages, averages at a figure between 20% and 40% (depending on the proportion of the total number of partnered people who are married). e.g. if half of the partnered people are married, then that's half of 40 + half of 20 = 30% of partnered people being unfaithful.

Grin

Busted. Told you I was lazy.

And you’re right, of course. I honestly couldn’t be bothered to quote it directly, and it was from Wiki after all.

Even if the numbers are all skewed, loads of people are unfaithful in committed relationships, married or not.

I don’t to believe all these people will do it again (the once a cheat, always a cheat bullshit, which by extension implies no one can learn from their mistakes or change their behaviour), I don’t believe all these people are narcissists or “bad” people, and while I’m at it I don’t believe the OW (if single) isn’t also to blame.

Sexual infidelity is inherently dishonest and extremely harmful. It can be traumatic. I’m not for it at all.

I’ve never been unfaithful, but if someone cheats and it’s the worst thing they’ve ever done, all I can say is I don’t want to be judged or remembered for the worst thing I’ve ever done. Most of us wouldn’t.

ShagMeRiggins · 13/10/2021 17:29

lottiegarbanzo I read your previous posts with interest and agreed with much of what you said.

However... *Cheating is, usually, a choice.” Pretty much everything is a choice unless physically overpowered somehow. Think being shot by a bullet, as an example. And I’m being somewhat philosophical here so don’t mind me. This could be another thread.

BringPizza · 13/10/2021 17:32

I was the OW in that he left wife#1 for me but there was no affair. Am I still the OW after 17 years of marrrage and 2 kids?

Musmerian · 13/10/2021 17:41

@5thnonblonde - that’s a pretty daft analogy. Humans aren’t perfect and life is messy. There’s a difference to being serially unfaithful and falling love with someone when you are already married. In reality it also suggests that there are fault lines in the relationship already. Thank God we’ve moved on from the days when peony had no choices. And actually the people I mentioned in my post would acknowledge now that it was probably the best thing in the long run. Maybe the people I know are more liberal and less judgmental than many on here.

placemats · 13/10/2021 17:51

Basically, if you leave your family for someone else then you don't give a shiny what others will think and that includes the children, even the children that may be born from the new relationship.

Selfish people do exist.

Kezzie200 · 13/10/2021 18:00

Resentment depends entirely on the people involved.

35 years ago I had to finish a relationship because I found my fiancee had been unfaithful (probably with 2, definitely 1). I actually never felt resentful of the OWs as both were single. It was entirely his fault in my mind.

I even felt sorry for one when he later moved on from her suddenly after 8 years together.

However I can understand why someone might hate the OW. Its a really strong feeling to fight. They will, of course, always be the OW to someone who cannot fight that feeling successfully.

5thnonblonde · 13/10/2021 18:22

@Musmerian when the last time you fell in love with someone without making any choices to spend more time with them, not remove yourself from their company etc etc. I’ve always said I could understand a ONS, particularly if drink was involved, it’s the million tiny steps that take you on the path to love that are just not what married people do. If I realised I was developing a crush on a colleague I genuinely believe I’d work to avoid fuelling that fire and I’d look at how I felt about my marriage.

ravenmum · 14/10/2021 08:43

There’s a difference to being serially unfaithful and falling love with someone when you are already married
I don't think the two are entirely unrelated. For my exh it took a few goes at chatting women up before he fell in love with someone. He used the same lines and techniques with her as with the others. And even if it is a one-off with no previous affairs, there's still a point where you make the decision to start a relationship with X before ending it with Y. That is still "being unfaithful", whether or not you're in love.

it also suggests that there are fault lines in the relationship already
These may, however, be fault lines that one partner does not know exists. And what relationship has no problems at all? Have you been pissed off with your partner about anything recently? Spoken to them angrily? What if that is the fault line, and they are about to start an affair tomorrow? You know you were angry; so should you have expected them to have an affair? Been less hurt by it?

the people I mentioned in my post would acknowledge now that it was probably the best thing in the long run
What was the best thing, though? The affair, or the fact that they broke up? Since I broke up with my exh, I've had more fun than I would have had by staying with him. I've met someone who wants to spend time with me, who is considerate and kind, and will sit down and have a thoughtful conversation with me. It's great! I didn't realise what I was missing with my exh.

So I'm glad we are no longer together. But that doesn't mean I remember the affair as a good thing. I don't look back happily at the time we were on holiday and my then husband stayed out until 4am on the phone with his mistress without telling me where he was, so I stayed up wondering if he'd been mugged, then got snapped at when he returned because he had "just been sitting thinking about his dead mother" and I was callous for not understanding that.
That's what "an affair" was for me, for more than a year. How about if he'd left me without doing that? If that idea is not liberal, then I guess I'm not liberal.

Namechangeapologies · 14/10/2021 08:45

ravenmum

I totally agree with you.

lottiegarbanzo · 14/10/2021 10:25

You're right that cheating is always a choice @ShagMeRiggins. I was a bit distracted there but nodding to pp's point that, for some people in abusive relationships, an affair might appear to be the best or safest way out - securing the support and protection of another adult before leaving the abusive one. Obviously not actually the best or safest way to go about it, as their judgement on the desirability of the affair partner might well be skewed by their sense of immediate need.

I do stick with my point that the capacity to cheat forms early and is part of a person's psychological make-up and moral framework. Thus the more interesting question is not 'when does someone stop being regarded as a cheat / affair partner', rather 'when did that person become a potential cheat / affair partner' and how might others spot that.

There is not only one kind of person who cheats, far from it. Some are weak and easily led, some thrill-seekers, some emotional incompetents unable to navigate the complex issues in their current relationship who believe the magical powers of a new squeeze will cure those for them, some never committed or easily bored, some resentful of their spouse and desiring to punish or undermine them, some overcome with their desire and thinking with their genitals, some likewise and prone to fantasising, some miserable but passive, allowing themselves to be 'taken away' by a white knight / princess rather than acting to end their unhappy relationship, some ruthless in pursuit of their own wants.

In every case, ending their current relationship is the right thing to do. Then looking around for someone new, or developing things further with a friend.

In every case a cheat chooses to do the wrong thing. They have a choice, they make their choice.

Portraying affairs as what 'normal people' do, as something that 'could happen to anyone' (what, passively, without warning or choice, like an asteroid landing on your head?) is what cheats and potential cheats tell themselves, to make themselves feel better.

Then they befriend the people who agree with them and form a 'we're all normal because we're the same', morally deficient social bubble, pat each other on the back, congratulate and commiserate with each other.

At the same time, there are many other social bubbles, populated by people who regard cheating as abhorrent, who would put themselves though a lot of effort and discomfort, either working to save a relationship, or going through the pain of leaving what might appear like an ok relationship, rather than cheat. Again, they befriend likeminded people and reinforce each others' social and moral norms.

That's what I've seen in the world.

LittleMysSister · 14/10/2021 10:42

[quote Worldwide2]@lottiegarbanzo yes I can see you keep repeating the phrases 'ruthless, deceit, selfishness' ect to describe someone who has cheated and that must be who they are through and through. I dont agree at all. I don't believe all people that cheat are how you describe. Some are yes but not all. I think what I have understood from this thread some people are as you describe ruthless and probably always will be but some are not. Just unhappy people who made a mistake. I don't think they deserve to be tarred for the rest of their life. I don't deem them to be untrustworthy forever either. So I think we will have to agree to disagree there.[/quote]
I agree Worldwide.

Of course there are some people who consistently cheat and always would, but equally there are many people who never even considered the possibility that they would even have feelings for someone else who find themselves involved.

Also many people who take baby steps down that road without thinking it's more than friendship, and then before they know it they're texting or going out for lunch with someone from work etc.

Not saying that it isn't a choice, of course everything we do is a choice, but I think most affairs (real or emotional) start very gradually and build up over time rather than being the passionate, secretive, spiteful thrill that we all tend to imagine.

ravenmum · 14/10/2021 10:50

I can't see myself having an affair, but not because I'm a "good person"; mainly because I'm an anxious person who is too scared to step out of line! I have friends who have had affairs - we get on fine, they don't try to tell me that my exh's affair was justified, that I am bitter or that I should not call his mistress his mistress, and I don't tell them that they shouldn't have gone off with someone else.

lottiegarbanzo · 14/10/2021 10:51

The thing is I don't disagree with what you've just written about how affairs develop or who conducts them @LittleMysSister

I don't think 'once a cheat always a cheat' in the sense that someone who has cheated once will inevitably cheat again. I do think the capacity to cheat is one manifestation of consistent personality traits and morals, that might also express themselves in other ways.

That's all very clear in what I've posted on this thread.

It's odd then that you appear to be disagreeing with me - by quoting someone else's misrepresentation of my views - when you aren't.

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