Was I over reacting feeling uncomfortable with this

[Yamaya]

My DD is 5 and went to another childs birthday party recently. Not a child we know well, a classmate, whose mum I was meeting for the first time.
It was all in the garden with a bouncy castle. Another guest, a little girl, had her mum and dad at the party and straight away I got creepy vibes from the man but couldn't put my finger on it, brushed it to one side.
When all the little girls sat in a circle for pass the parcel he pretended to fall into the circle and rolled all over them, which they (mostly all of them) found funny but I was thinking get up you prat!
Then towards the end of the party he got on the bouncy castle and started playing chasing and tickling games with my daughter and another child. This is when I started to feel really uncomfortable with the situation. My DD loves when adults play silly so was loving it but I just felt it wasn't appropriate for a grown man to be playing like this with children you only just met and aren't related to?
I called my DD away to have cake but she went straight back to him to keep playing. Then he started "falling over" again and my DD and another child would tickle him. One time my DD laid on him tickling him and he made no attempt to get up or stop it which seemed totally inappropriate and I called my DD that it was time for us to leave which she did quickly. Whilst saying goodbye to the host I looked over again and he was off the bouncy castle and sat down again, glaring at me with maybe a smirk? Or could have just been his horrible face!
DD had no problem with any of this but didn't seem right to me. But I am overly anxious and listen to a lot of true crime etc.
No other parents at the party seemed concerned or even seemed to notice!

What do you think, was I over reacting?
I would rather over react than under react in these situations tbh.

it's human instinct to trust those known and close to you more than those you don't know so of course DD's uncle behaving like that wouldn't raise such alarm bells

Which is why "trust your gut" is utter bullshit. Because stats are quite clear on who the predatory risk to children are. So whilst people are handwringing about one guy having some fun at a party, nobody is looking at Uncle. And that's how they get away with it.

One was just saying she's a primary school teacher, surely they have safe guarding training

Yes, and having had that training, she saw no reason to panic. Perhaps she doesn't base her decisions on true crime programmes.

@BoredZelda

it's human instinct to trust those known and close to you more than those you don't know so of course DD's uncle behaving like that wouldn't raise such alarm bells

Which is why "trust your gut" is utter bullshit. Because stats are quite clear on who the predatory risk to children are. So whilst people are handwringing about one guy having some fun at a party, nobody is looking at Uncle. And that's how they get away with it.

Nice going ignoring the rest of my post and taking this out of context.

@BoredZelda

it's human instinct to trust those known and close to you more than those you don't know so of course DD's uncle behaving like that wouldn't raise such alarm bells

Which is why "trust your gut" is utter bullshit. Because stats are quite clear on who the predatory risk to children are. So whilst people are handwringing about one guy having some fun at a party, nobody is looking at Uncle. And that's how they get away with it.

But who’s to say that uncle is doing it to other children that he’s not related to?!

But who’s to say that uncle is doing it to other children that he’s not related to?!

The statistics that show by far child abuse happens within a family.

Nice going ignoring the rest of my post and taking this out of context.

The context was your assertion that human instinct is to trust those we know.

The statistics that show by far child abuse happens within a family.

Yes. That uncle for example would have lots of access to this child

He May take one off opportunities whenever he can. Which don’t result in a reporting. Because one off.

And the mother is unaware because… she didn’t act on her instinct.

Odd you are so black and white about this.

I hope that you don’t approach this statistic approach to your own children if you have any

@BoredZelda

But who’s to say that uncle is doing it to other children that he’s not related to?!

The statistics that show by far child abuse happens within a family.

Nice going ignoring the rest of my post and taking this out of context.

The context was your assertion that human instinct is to trust those we know.

What's your take on my comparison with violence against women? Women are much more likely to be hurt and killed by their partners than a stranger but who would you prefer to see in your kitchen holding a knife?

@Pikamoo Whilst I see your point, this thread is about people behaving inappropriately (possibly for a perverted reason) towards children.

It isn't about violence against women.

Of course it's not, but I'm trying to get through to BoredZelda that you can't just look at statistics and think "oh, DD is much more likely to be abused by a close relative so it's ok for a stranger to tickle her and have her straddle him" just like you wouldn't see a stranger in your kitchen with a knife and think "DH is statistically much more likely to hurt me than a stranger so this nice man must be here to cook my dinner".

I don't think that @BoredZelda is quite that stupid.

That's how it comes across to me, ignoring questionable behaviour with the justification that "you're more likely to be abused by a relative". With zero consideration for the different expectations of behaviour with relatives regarding personal boundaries. DH in my kitchen holding a knife? DH tickling and cuddling DD? Both very normal. Stranger in my kitchen holding a knife? Stranger cuddling and tickling DD? Not quite so normal...

Yes relatives/known people are more likely to be abusive to children and we shouldn't let our guard down when it comes to protecting our children from anyone. But abuse from relatives is so much harder for an external observer to detect because you expect a closer relationship between the two parties. I don't think you could infer abuse from the scenario described if the person involved was the girl's father, uncle, older brother etc (you have to look carefully for other signs). But a stranger behaving like that with a child he doesn't know? Nope..that's creepy.

Women are much more likely to be hurt and killed by their partners than a stranger but who would you prefer to see in your kitchen holding a knife?

False equivalence.

"oh, DD is much more likely to be abused by a close relative so it's ok for a stranger to tickle her and have her straddle him"

I don't believe I said that. If you read it that way, that's a bit of a leap in comprehension. The actual point is, would OP be as concerned if a relative was behaving that way or would it be seen as ok because it's just how Uncle Joe is with kids, isn't he fun! That's where "human instinct" or "gut feel " or whatever else you want to call is is way off the mark.

But the behaviour expected from a close relative is different from the behaviour expected from a stranger, that's the point. What triggers that gut instinct that something isn't right is going to be different depending on the person involved. Just because I'd be ok with my BIL cuddling DD and picking her up to look at something doesn't mean I'd be ok with a stranger doing the same! And if they tried to I'd definitely think something was a bit off about them.

@BoredZelda

But who’s to say that uncle is doing it to other children that he’s not related to?!

The statistics that show by far child abuse happens within a family.

Nice going ignoring the rest of my post and taking this out of context.

The context was your assertion that human instinct is to trust those we know.

Child abuse in general probably is statistically usually within the family. But this thread isn't about child abuse in general, it is specifically about perverts targeting other people's children. They befriend the parents and the children. They inveigle themselves into situations where they have unsupervised access to those children. By that time, the children and the parents do know the abuser, so naturally they trust him. That is the pervert's modus operandi.

It is right at the beginning, when a parent or onlooker has a gut instinct that something's fishy - that's when action needs to be taken.

@BoredZelda

"oh, DD is much more likely to be abused by a close relative so it's ok for a stranger to tickle her and have her straddle him"

I don't believe I said that. If you read it that way, that's a bit of a leap in comprehension. The actual point is, would OP be as concerned if a relative was behaving that way or would it be seen as ok because it's just how Uncle Joe is with kids, isn't he fun! That's where "human instinct" or "gut feel " or whatever else you want to call is is way off the mark.

But presumably YOU have a relationship with uncle joe

Presumably YOU have spoken with him. Know him as an adult In his own right, his character. So you are armed with more information to make a judgement

Hence the need to rely more on instinct when it’s a stranger.

@Pikamoo

But the behaviour expected from a close relative is different from the behaviour expected from a stranger, that's the point. What triggers that gut instinct that something isn't right is going to be different depending on the person involved. Just because I'd be ok with my BIL cuddling DD and picking her up to look at something doesn't mean I'd be ok with a stranger doing the same! And if they tried to I'd definitely think something was a bit off about them.

But more often than not, that gut instinct does not materialise when it comes to close relatives. Hence why abuse is still most commonly perpetrated by those we know well.

One must use more than gut instinct to assess a situation because it can lead to falsely accusing someone or very detrimentally believing someone is fine when they are not.

What is gut instinct? Often it will be observation of a number of small things. Because we're socialised to be nice, to not make a fuss, often our sense of social embarrassment causes us to suppress these observations and dismiss them.

I think this is more likely to happen with people known to us (it's more embarrassing to call someone you know out on their behaviour than a stranger, and harder to simply remove yourself from their presence without causing offence).

I don't think the OP was acting on gut instinct at all. She saw a number of red flags - boundary violating behaviour from this man. It wasn't even subtle. No other adult male or female there was behaving this way with children they didn't know. It's not normal behaviour. It's grooming.

There is more to lose from acting on red flags with those well known to us (family rifts, discomfort in social situations). So we suppress things we see and know to be red flags more than with strangers.

In the OP's case she has absolutely nothing to lose really from making sure her daughter never sees this man again. But it's not so easy if it's someone you know well / someone beloved and respected in the community. (Savile anyone? How pleasant was it for those that spoke up against him?)

It's well known that perpetrators seek charm and befriend the parents of their victims. If we treated strangers and non-strangers equally they wouldn't bother.

Being too cautious around strangers isn't the issue (so what if it hurts a few men's feelings, boo hoo, it's worth it if it protects just one child IMO), it's being not cautious enough around those we know.

The OP wasn't acting on gut instinct - she saw red flags. Her socialisation towards 'being nice' and 'not making a fuss' overrode this for a very short while (we all do it OP, you did the right thing in plenty of time) but then she saw sense and did what was right to protect her child.

Because we're socialised to be nice, to not make a fuss, often our sense of social embarrassment causes us to suppress these observations and dismiss them.

Even if you suspected that person was abusing your child??!

I wouldn’t give a flying fig. If I got the tiniest whiff that something inappropriate that occurring - then fuck embarrassment.

And any parent who doesn’t act because of embarrassment - is essentially complicit in any abuse that may be occurring.

Well obviously if it's clear abuse then that's something most people would speak up about. But it doesn't start out like that, does it? That's the point. Very subtle boundary violations which people can argue about whether or not are a problem and 'isn't it a shame men are regarded with such suspicion'.

That's how it starts. That's why decent men don't behave in the way described by the OP - because they understand eroding kids boundaries is a problem.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Well obviously if it's clear abuse then that's something most people would speak up about. But it doesn't start out like that, does it? That's the point. Very subtle boundary violations which people can argue about whether or not are a problem and 'isn't it a shame men are regarded with such suspicion'.

That's how it starts. That's why decent men don't behave in the way described by the OP - because they understand eroding kids boundaries is a problem.

I made the point that if I got a “whiff” of something I was uncomfortable

No bloody way would embarrassment stop me

I am my child’s protector and voice until they are independent (and then I’ll still be their protector to some extent).

Yes and you're right Marni, absolutely. But a lot of people (women) are taught to question and suppress their feelings, their noticing of red flags and put men's comfort above their misgivings. I wish it wasn't so.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Yes and you're right Marni, absolutely. But a lot of people (women) are taught to question and suppress their feelings, their noticing of red flags and put men's comfort above their misgivings. I wish it wasn't so.

Taught by whom?