Was I over reacting feeling uncomfortable with this

[Yamaya]

My DD is 5 and went to another childs birthday party recently. Not a child we know well, a classmate, whose mum I was meeting for the first time.
It was all in the garden with a bouncy castle. Another guest, a little girl, had her mum and dad at the party and straight away I got creepy vibes from the man but couldn't put my finger on it, brushed it to one side.
When all the little girls sat in a circle for pass the parcel he pretended to fall into the circle and rolled all over them, which they (mostly all of them) found funny but I was thinking get up you prat!
Then towards the end of the party he got on the bouncy castle and started playing chasing and tickling games with my daughter and another child. This is when I started to feel really uncomfortable with the situation. My DD loves when adults play silly so was loving it but I just felt it wasn't appropriate for a grown man to be playing like this with children you only just met and aren't related to?
I called my DD away to have cake but she went straight back to him to keep playing. Then he started "falling over" again and my DD and another child would tickle him. One time my DD laid on him tickling him and he made no attempt to get up or stop it which seemed totally inappropriate and I called my DD that it was time for us to leave which she did quickly. Whilst saying goodbye to the host I looked over again and he was off the bouncy castle and sat down again, glaring at me with maybe a smirk? Or could have just been his horrible face!
DD had no problem with any of this but didn't seem right to me. But I am overly anxious and listen to a lot of true crime etc.
No other parents at the party seemed concerned or even seemed to notice!

What do you think, was I over reacting?
I would rather over react than under react in these situations tbh.

When I was a child 60s/70s men didn’t behave like that

Men also didn’t change nappies, bathe their kids or, well, really do much with them at all.

No, because "mum" is much, much less likely to be a predator than "dad" is.

And OP’s father/brother/uncle is more likely to abuse her child than an unknown man at a party, but would she have viewed him with the same suspicion?

@SaturdaySpread

Stop with the gut thing. Yes we've all got examples of when we didn't like someone on sight and turned out to be right, but how many times has someone you did like turned out not to be who you thought they were?

Gut basically means this man is a bit socially inept and looks funny, must be dodgy, but this one, a good looking expert manipulator is OK. All the serial abusers you've heard of "succeeded" precisely because people liked them and no one thought them odd, despite their actual behaviour not adding up.

No, that isn't what 'gut' means.

I won't stop with the 'gut' thing. It doesn't matter how many innocent people might get offended, if you can stop one pervert from abusing a small child then it would be worthwhile.

Expert manipulators are also good at manipulating the adults around them (particularly the parents of the children in their sights). But when they end up in jail, it is surprising in the cold light of day just how many people say to you that they knew there was something dodgy about them, and when they go on to tell you why they think so, you can see not only why it was dodgy, but also how they managed to get away with it. It was dodgy, but not dodgy enough if you see what I mean.

I had a gut feeling and I wish I'd acted on it. If I had... well it might not have prevented the abuse that had already happened (and good on that young girl for having the courage to finally tell her family) but I could have prevented his ongoing grooming of his next potential victim and the vile gratification he must have got from that. Several of us all had the same gut feeling, but we didn't tell one another. I wish we had.

Human beings are the only animal that do not listen to our instinct for fear of “over reacting”. I would say listen to it. You as a mother and as a mammal have instincts to keep you safe and to keep your child safe for a reason.

@SaturdaySpread

I don't know, one part of me thinks WTF of course you don't behave like that with children you don't know.

The other part thinks what a shame that we think like that about a man making children happy and really adding something to the party.

^ this My uncle (he’s 85) loves children, he played non stop with his children, grandchildren, me (I was his niece) Board games, trains, puzzles, play fighting, puppets, reading, tag, sports. I don’t know about letting them crawl all over him/tickling strangers children bit. But he certainly interacts with strangers children.

If he made you uncomfortable then you HAVE to listen to that. I find it so sad that people always think this way, but we can’t take the chance can we.

I’m a 40 odd year old, mum of DD 5 and I feel awkward when children ask for a push on the swing/can’t get off playground equipment, fall down and want picking up. I always ask where mum or dad is (unless imminent danger involved obviously).

Gavin de becker, protecting the gift. Read it OP. It's brilliant.

The fact is child abuse is still more rife than any of us like to acknowledge. In fact, adults not acknowledging it is part of the problem.

A significant minority of men are predators. This means that the good men need to accept there are boundaries around how they interact with kids - blame the predators for that if you don't like it and try and do something about it - not the mother who's trying to safeguard her child FFS.

In this situation it doesn't really matter whether or not this man was a predator - the fact is he breached boundaries. The mother has parental responsibility and she is not ok with this, so that's a breach. But he's also lowering the boundaries of children by doing this. And even if he's no threat himself, he makes it easier for paedophiles with those kids next time. That's why it's not ok. Decent men don't do this.

You were right to be concerned. Don't trust your gut OP, read de Becker's book and trust the statistics. Trust the word of this international expert. You did the right thing removing your child from this situation.

@SaturdaySpread

Stop with the gut thing. Yes we've all got examples of when we didn't like someone on sight and turned out to be right, but how many times has someone you did like turned out not to be who you thought they were?

Gut basically means this man is a bit socially inept and looks funny, must be dodgy, but this one, a good looking expert manipulator is OK. All the serial abusers you've heard of "succeeded" precisely because people liked them and no one thought them odd, despite their actual behaviour not adding up.

The police always recommended following your instincts in a situation that feels unsafe. Your point here is incorrect. Gut instinct sits as part of our wider survival instincts. Do you honestly think it's wrong for a parent to trust their instincts about a stranger, when it comes to safeguarding their child?

I should have added, your gut in this instance was correct and in line with what experts would say.

'don't trust your gut' when said to a mother who's trying to ensure her child is safe is basically telling women to put men's feelings above a child's safety. Fuck that.

@SaturdaySpread

Stop with the gut thing. Yes we've all got examples of when we didn't like someone on sight and turned out to be right, but how many times has someone you did like turned out not to be who you thought they were?

Gut basically means this man is a bit socially inept and looks funny, must be dodgy, but this one, a good looking expert manipulator is OK. All the serial abusers you've heard of "succeeded" precisely because people liked them and no one thought them odd, despite their actual behaviour not adding up.

Are you a parent out of interest?

And as for you point about “gut” and to ignore it

It’s totally at odd with the police and medical advice in this country.

@theemperorhasnoclothes I totally agree. People don't realise how common sexual abuse and grooming of children is and feel more comfortable believing it's rare. Having worked with children I know sadly it's just not rare at all. There's no way I would have allowed this to continue and I'm totally with the OP. It felt not right because it wasn't.

Having worked with children I know sadly it's just not rare at all.

Is it rare for it to happen with some random bloke at a kids’ party?

Do you think it would?

The guys behaviour is unacceptable whatever his motives are. That's the long and the short of it. He shouldn't be doing it. But in answer to your question child abuse actually isn't rare in any setting. People like to think it is but they are deluded.

Lying on children is inappropriate
Touching/tickling is in appropriate
Being straddled by/laid on a child is not appropriate.

All three in a couple of hours...damn right I am making a safeguarding referral. I am shocked that more people wouldn't.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Gavin de becker, protecting the gift. Read it OP. It's brilliant.

The fact is child abuse is still more rife than any of us like to acknowledge. In fact, adults not acknowledging it is part of the problem.

A significant minority of men are predators. This means that the good men need to accept there are boundaries around how they interact with kids - blame the predators for that if you don't like it and try and do something about it - not the mother who's trying to safeguard her child FFS.

In this situation it doesn't really matter whether or not this man was a predator - the fact is he breached boundaries. The mother has parental responsibility and she is not ok with this, so that's a breach. But he's also lowering the boundaries of children by doing this. And even if he's no threat himself, he makes it easier for paedophiles with those kids next time. That's why it's not ok. Decent men don't do this.

You were right to be concerned. Don't trust your gut OP, read de Becker's book and trust the statistics. Trust the word of this international expert. You did the right thing removing your child from this situation.

This is a great reply, thank you. Made me see that it actually doesn't matter what his intentions were, it was crossing a line and I was right to put a stop to it. A good way to look at situations in future. I'll look up the book you recommended.

My abuser always used to tickle me in front of people, he would also do a game where he would turn me upside down so I was walking on the ceiling... funnily enough when I was in a skirt.
I say trust your instincts and you are doing the right thing to be aware and not assuming it's all just fun.
I wish my parents had been as aware like you, your daughter is lucky to have you keeping an eye out, trust your instincts.

@MozzarellaMonster

My abuser always used to tickle me in front of people, he would also do a game where he would turn me upside down so I was walking on the ceiling... funnily enough when I was in a skirt. I say trust your instincts and you are doing the right thing to be aware and not assuming it's all just fun. I wish my parents had been as aware like you, your daughter is lucky to have you keeping an eye out, trust your instincts.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. There are some sick people in the world.

Thank you it was a very long time ago and he's long dead but plenty more of them around unfortunately.
The one up side is I also watch my kids like a hawk and trust my instincts so I hope I can prevent anything like it happening to them, I wish more parents realised this behaviour is not acceptable.

@BoredZelda

Having worked with children I know sadly it's just not rare at all.

Is it rare for it to happen with some random bloke at a kids’ party?

Is it rare for it to happen with some random bloke at a kids' party?

Well. In complete isolation it could well be fine.

But if that person knows he can get away with that much in full view of everyone, how much more is he capable of in private? Those children at that party will now know and trust him. That is how grooming starts: gain their trust, make them like you. After all, they were with friends and family, and the man was nice. In the not too distant future, some of those party children might be friends with his dc and having sleepovers at his house. They trust him. Their parents trust him...

I certainly listen to my gut and in my long life it has never been wrong.

Those tingly feelings have been a clear warning to be on my guard.

I think that mans behaviour was deeply inappropriate and I can't imagine parents thinking it was fine.

OP you did your best in the moment, your eyes were on her.

I think next time you will react even more quickly.

The Gavin de Becker book is absolutely excellent and well worth the fiver I paid for it.

@BoredZelda it's human instinct to trust those known and close to you more than those you don't know so of course DD's uncle behaving like that wouldn't raise such alarm bells. Or if it did then it would be a lot harder to take the action OP did because the man is an uncle, he's not expected to be abusive. That doesn't mean the behaviour is ok though.

Always trust your own instincts.

If you embarrassed or unsure to say something in future, I would step in straight away and say to him “I'm sorry my kid is harrassing you, how awkward she doesn't even know you! Haha, oh dear! Now (insert DD name) we are here to play with the kids ok?" If he then says it's ok/I like it or whatever then you look at him like he has two heads. You can even loudly tell your DD it's inappropriate to play with strangers like that. So you aren't accusing him of anything, but placing that firm boundary in place.

Just a thought for those saying "it's just because you didn't know him". Women are much more likely to be murdered by a partner than a stranger but who would you prefer to see standing in your kitchen holding a carving knife?

In future I will definitely call my daughter over and have a word with her to the side to stop playing with him and if he says anything or anyone else does I can use the sorry she is harassing you / we don't play like that line. I couldn't believe the other parents were fine with it. One was just saying she's a primary school teacher, surely they have safe guarding training. Think she was enjoying sitting down having an adult conversation. That's the thing as well, all the other parents were sat down to the side. Just this man was with the children. Seemed such odd behaviour.

You knew he was off from the start, that’s what you listen to.

You did the right thing